On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 21 Nov 2013, at 15:50, Jason Resch wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 20 Nov 2013, at 21:35, John Mikes wrote:
>>
>> Telmo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> *"I admire the US constitution too. In fact, my political position is
>> essentially to follow it (although I like to imagine possibilities for 
>> **peaceful
>> world with further increases in freedom)*."
>>
>> Which Constitution? the one epoch-opening chef-d'oeuvre based on
>> modernized medieval ideas of those well educated smoking-duelling
>> slave-owner male chauvinist Forefathers,
>> who just did not want to pay taxes to the King of England, or the later
>> "amended" versions of the same obsolete construct making it into a
>> gun-toting killer - corrupt, faith-ruled money-monger (with SOME
>> exceptions, thank you).
>>
>>  I join you in admiring the original one - as a relic, an innovation
>> historical masterpiece FOR THE 18th CENTURY. Not for the 21st.
>> My admiration stopped short when I realized the outcome:
>> a 'special-interest money'-ruled anti-democratic conglomerate,
>> *governing* a so called government into committing crimes (international
>> and domestic) originally excluded
>> from it's 'modus (regulatio) vivendi'.
>>
>>  How can you imagine a 'peaceful' world with capitalistic (I call it:
>> econo-feudalistic) principles, imperialistic (oil?) wars and forcing own
>> interest on other countries? (Not to
>> mention the availability of all level governance for enough money).
>>
>>
>>
>> Gödel pretended that the US constitution was inconsistent and refused to
>> sign it. Einstein intervened and succeeded in changing Gödel's mind (about
>> not signing it to get the "green card" or the nationality).
>> Einstein asked Gödel if the US constitution could prevent something like
>> a Nazy party to take power, like in Germany, and Gödel said that it could!
>>
>
>
> There was a letter describing the event which was long thought to be lost,
> but was recently found as described here:
>
> http://morgenstern.jeffreykegler.com/
>
> See the bottom of page 7 in this 2006 letter by the IAS:
> http://www.ias.edu/files/pdfs/publications/letter-2006-spring.pdf
>
>
> Interesting links. Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I don't think capitalism is the problem, but financial lobbying and
>> corporatism; + lies, can pervert completely a democracy.
>>
>
> Yes, I think where things stand today is the result of something different
> from the flaw Godel found.
>
>
> Are you sure?
>


I just mean that while the effect is more or less the same (subverted
democracy), I think the means is probably different than an exploitation of
the same flaw (whatever it was) that Godel found.

What we have today isn't so much a corruption of the laws by which
government operates, but a corruption of people in the government.

My guess is that the inconsistency Godel found in the constitution involved
a means of using the laws against themselves, rather than what we see today
which is a selective enforcement of laws.  Applying laws in full force
against some, while not applying the laws at all against others.  This,
coupled with bought and paid for lawmakers and a broken forth estate make
it easy for those with power and wealth to use the government as a tool to
further their power and wealth.



>
> For me both prohibition and 9/11 are ... unsolved.
>
> I would be happy to know Gödel's argument that the US constitution permits
> dictatorship.
>
>
I am also very curious about it.  I've sometimes thought about whether a
constitution can be designed with game-theoretical principals such that it
would be impossible (or highly improbable) for groups to obtain
disproportionate levels of power.  Another interesting idea is that of an
AI which, like an automated theorem prover, can decide on the
constitutionality of a given law.  The source code for this could be open
source so all can verify it.  This might be called an AItocracy.




> The existence of prohibition of Foods and Drugs in the Land of the Free is
> for me still a mystery.
>
> To forbid or discourage research on a plant is ... applied obscurantism.
>
> Where does that come from?
>
>
Likely from a lot of places, the prison lobby, law enforcement unions,
money launderers, synthetic drug companies, paper companies, and so on.
Things which are good for the majority of the population (cheap
alternatives, copyrighted works entering the public domain, patents
expiring to become generic drugs, universal healthcare, direct democracy,
etc.) are often bad for the small few that hold an advantaged position from
the unavailability of that good thing.  See how the copyright length gets
extended everytime Disney's cartoons enter danger of entering the public
domain ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act ).

Jason



>
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>> The deeper problem relies in the fact that most humans are unwilling to
>> think by themselves, and they confuse "p -> q" and "q -> p" all the times.
>> The (human, but not only) sciences are still driven by the appeal to
>> authority. We have never been "modern".
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>
>
>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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