Liz: your precise version (with Bruno's rounding it up) makes me evoid to
call myself an atheist:
An 'atheist' requires god(s) to DENY.
In my (rather agnostic) worldview there is no place (requirement) for
supernatural (whatever that may be) 'forces' to control "nature".

I feel reluctant to draw conclusions about 'nature' (everything - beyond
the physicists' view) based upon "what makes sense to us" today. And I
would ask Bruno to add to his 'Christian God' concept Allah and the Jewish
god(s?) - he mentioned the Hindi ones briefly. All 'gods' are culturally
benevolent - preferring the 'good' and 'useful' for the praying ones, e.g.
annihilate their enemies, while THE SAME GOD is asked by those same enemies
to annihilate the prayee - both hoping to be heard. Here is the societal
input:
murder is a sin, unless it is in the interest of society (war) when it is
the ultimate heroism (or: if it is to retaliate against the infidel, when
it paves the way into heaven.)
I like Spudboy's argumentation.

*Afterlife?* I sent a little snap to Brent about two fetuses arguing in the
womb
whether there is *life **beyond birth*?
Brent replied with Mark Twain's bon mot: 'Since he was in that 'afterlife'
world for billions of years before he was born and did not carry any
adverse memories from there, he is not afraid to go back after death.'
It is all in the same imagination where my mistake has its roots when I
said "if something "exists" in our mind then it surely DOES exist (there).
Accepting (in Bruno's sharp view) the existence of a mind.
I am adversive to a court-like processing of an 'eternal(???) soul based on
a short life-span (maybe only 10 years? or 1 day?) with a verdict similar
to how the injustice-systems work in the diverse societal setups and
'imagined' for my belief-system the complexity of 'us' (all living/non
living creatures) falling apart at death - maybe into portions only - and
joining other complexities not fallen apart.. Elements may stay and act in
the new environment - a source of spiritism experienced. It embraces the
reincarnation and all ghost stories without the usual explanations that may
scare us. No demons haunting.

*Evolution?* Not in my views with a connotation of striving for 'better' or
'final'...
Changes occur to comply with given ci5rcumstances and capabilities in
RELATIONS (unknown). Whatever can - will survive and the changes - better
or worse - go on. If a 'god' pre-planned an evolution, why are we not
started with the end-product? Why the zillion extinctions? Why the
unfathomable variety?
(Again a human-logic stance - ha ha).

My wife, however, embraces the view of 'us' kept by 'zookeepers' in this
universe for purposes unknown -  does not share my ignorance and dreams
about a 'purpose' of our being here. Not only by nice dreams.

John Mikes



On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:06 AM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To be exact it's the belief that no gods exist, i.e. that "theism" is
> wrong. But otherwise it does seem to echo Aristotle and Plato, at least as
> far as I understand them.
>
>
> On 24 November 2013 04:56, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 23 Nov 2013, at 14:05, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Atheism is wish fulfillment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes. Notably. I agree.
>>
>> It is the fuzzy belief that the Christian God does not exist, together
>> with the belief in the Christian "Matter".
>>
>> The debate between Atheists and Christians hides the deeper debate
>> between Aristotle and Plato.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
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