On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/28/2013 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 27 Nov 2013, at 23:36, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/27/2013 7:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 26 Nov 2013, at 18:56, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Bruno Marchal
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife,
Those are 2 separate ideas and there is no reason they must be
linked. There could be a God and no afterlife or a afterlife
and no God; or neither could exist or both could.
If you are able to conceive a god without afterlife, it means you
can conceive a non Christian God, which is nice, but contradicts
the main atheist statements you already did in preceding
conversations.
How does being able to conceive a non-Christian God contradict
being an atheist?? I can conceive many different gods that I
don't believe in.
Can you conceive a God in which you do believe?
That was for John Clark who defined once God by the Christian God.
Also, if you can conceive a Non Christian God, it becomes more
difficult to *believe* in the non existence of God.
I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An,
Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares,
Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian,
Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin,
Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos,
Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton,
Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di
Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, Ereskigal,
Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades,
Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o),
Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei,
Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar,
Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter,
Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau,
Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza,
Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb,
Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses,
Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys,
Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua,
Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan,
Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon,
Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva,
Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-
Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca,
Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-
Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu,
Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam,
Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I see no
reason to believe any of them exist.
Which means it is up to you to prove that none of those Gods can
exist. But the ONE is not anyone of those, as it has no name.
A god, with a name, that might be a comp reason to disbelieve in it,
or to try to look who is hiding beyond the name.
Nice list, though :)
We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that
notion is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on
which atheists agreed.
It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'.
But "theist" is not clear.
My point exactly.
OK.
Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science,
we try to get a concept as independent of human and culture as
possible.
I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can
search about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever
it is).
Except nobody here is speaking Greek. And the Greeks had plenty
of gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given
to deception.
I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did
invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if
terribly deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and
the use of authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and
perhaps by the Jewish (with Maimonides, to some extent).
Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge
Greek philosophy into the Jewish Messianic religion of
Christianity. But the abrahamic religions owe far more to the
Babylonian, Egyptian, and Zoroastrian religions than to Greek.
They might owe even far more to the Löbian numbers.
It is not because we have found strong evidence that the Earth is
NOT flat, that Earth has disappeared. We just correct our theory
of Earth. Why couldn't we do that with the notion of God?
Well for one thing, we can point to the Earth and say "That."
OK. That's harder for a platonist. "That" is not a proof (I can do
that in dream about anything).
In all case, "that" is a theory (even if that one is hard wired in the
necessity to take seriously our neighborhood).
In comp, "that" is an indexical.
And such method does not apply to any transcendental theory of
reality, be it string theory of arithmetic, or machine's theology.
Shall we just correct our theory of Vulcan and instead of it being a
planet identical to Earth but which is always behind the Sun it will
be a conceptual planet that has no observable effects but which we
will say it exists in the mathematical way: It satisfies some
propositions. Then we can keep the word "Vulcan" and persecute
whoever denies its existence.
On the contrary, if vulcan can't kick back to me in a way or another,
I prefer to forget the idea.
With comp, primitive matter is like that vulcan: it has no observable
effect (unless comp is false, and that makes comp testable).
Bruno
Brent
Bruno
Brent
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