2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>

> As I said to Telmo talking about sacrifices somewhere above, individual
> sacrifices are the only way to create trust among non cloning entities.
>  And what higher sacrifice than to negate'what is screaming in his mind, in
> the universe and in everithing? That is the main sacrifice of  the atheists.
>

Nothing is screaming in my mind, in the universe and everything... I
sacrifice nothing.

Quentin


>
>
> 2013/12/1 Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com>
>
>> We exist, then why should we reject the idea of having been created, just
>> because we are unable to comprehend or define our Creator? Is that not
>> intellectual dishonesty?
>>
>> Samiya
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 01-Dec-2013, at 3:33 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> >> Brent,
>> >>
>> >> I hope you don't mind I re-answer this.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
>> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
>> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
>> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder,
>> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit,
>> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
>> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
>> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona,
>> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia,
>> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman,
>> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera,
>> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli,
>> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki,
>> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya,
>> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan,
>> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk,
>> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot,
>> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys,
>> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut,
>> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati,
>> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama,
>> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash,
>> Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh,
>> Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou,
>> Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus,
>> Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli,
>> Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I
>> see no reason to believe any of them exist.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So the question is:  do you see a reason to disbelieve all of them?
>> >
>> > I didn't say I "disbelieved", I said I saw no reason to believe in
>> them.  I *fail* to believe in them.  I think of "belief" as admitting
>> degrees.  I disbelieve in them FAPP, i.e. if I have to act I will act as if
>> they didn't exist.  But I cited the list to contradict your idea that
>> conceiving of gods makes it harder to disbelieve in God. I think it is the
>> other way around; it's harder to disbelieve in something undefined.  Which
>> makes me wonder how you can be so dogmatic that fundamental matter does not
>> exist?
>> >
>> >
>> >> What if the list just missed the one that exists?
>> >>
>> >> As far as I know, honestly, it seems to me that only Ganesh, or
>> Ganesha, is incompatible with comp.
>> >>
>> >> I really love Ganesh, though, perhaps for that very reason. When kid,
>> Ganesh made his father angry and the angry father cut Ganesh's head, and
>> threw it away. Her mother was *very* angry, and ordered the father do find
>> a new head quickly, and the father, in the hurry, cut the head of of the
>> first elephant passing by, and that is why Ganesh has an elephant head
>> (which reminds me of the cuttlefish which I love even more).
>> >>
>> >> I guess you see the problem with comp. It is a version of the
>> brain-exchanged thought experience. But is it really contradictory with
>> comp? That's needs the thought experiences with (degrees of) amnesia, and
>> addressing the question who are we and how many person really exist.
>> >>
>> >> But how could I argue about Ohyamatsumi or RheaSabazius, Tlaloc? I
>> would need to study their stories to conclude.
>> >>
>> >> Also, it looks that list misses the divinities that you can met by
>> smoking some herb, like the four kanobo Gods, and Daunarani, ... with
>> tobacco, or simply Maria, you know, the Mother of God, that you can meet
>> with Salvia (according to the Christian Mazatecs).
>> >>
>> >> There is no algorithm capable of deciding of two machines computes or
>> not the same function, so you can imagine the difficulties with the
>> nameable non machines, or gods and goddesses.
>> >>
>> >> And the big one, cannot be in such a list, I guess.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that
>> notion is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on which
>> atheists agreed.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But "theist" is not clear.
>> >>>
>> >>> My point exactly.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> But if you agree that "theist" is not clear, you agree that "atheist"
>> is not clear either.
>> >
>> > But "theist" is only unclear because you suppose that you can cite some
>> ancient philosopher as *really* defining "theism".  I accept the modern
>> theory of dictionaries that meanings are defined by usage; and the usage of
>> "God" is a superperson who created the world, wants to be worshipped, and
>> judges, rewards and punishes.
>> >
>> >> It creates an opposition where I see beliefs everywhere, and good
>> willing people trying to understand each others, mixed with people who
>> insult instead.
>> >>
>> >> I have many sympathy for many atheists, and I share with them
>> important ideas, like no artificial magic, occam razor, rationalism, and
>> the anticleralism, and the "anti-autoritarism" (of the first one), but they
>> get trapped in* believing* they have solved the theological question, or
>> trapped in the deny that there was even a question, leading to a form of
>> "don't ask", which slow down the possible progresses, and becomes an
>> autoritarist meme by itself.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science,
>> we try to get a concept as independent of human and culture as possible.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can
>> search about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Except nobody here is speaking Greek.  And the Greeks had plenty of
>> gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to
>> deception.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did
>> invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly
>> deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of
>> authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish
>> (with Maimonides, to some extent).
>> >>>
>> >>> Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge
>> Greek philosophy into the Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity.  But
>> the abrahamic religions owe far more to the Babylonian, Egyptian, and
>> Zoroastrian religions than to Greek.
>> >>
>> >> OK. But let us not confuse the terrestrial implementation of the
>> religious process and the true relations that machines can have with truth.
>> >
>> > But you are exactly the person confusing them in your writing (if not
>> your thoughts) by using language of religions to express simple
>> mathematical ideas.
>> >
>> > Brent
>> >
>> >
>> >> As I said, thanks to Babbage, Turing, Post, Church, discoveries of the
>> universal numbers, we get an interesting "simple" Number Theology, which
>> can be used as an etalon in comparative theology.
>> >>
>> >> In the first match Plato 1 and Aristotle 0.
>> >>
>> >> It is not the last match in the comp soccer cup!
>> >>
>> >> Bruno
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>> >
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> Alberto.
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