2013/12/1 Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> > As I said to Telmo talking about sacrifices somewhere above, individual > sacrifices are the only way to create trust among non cloning entities. > And what higher sacrifice than to negate'what is screaming in his mind, in > the universe and in everithing? That is the main sacrifice of the atheists. >
Nothing is screaming in my mind, in the universe and everything... I sacrifice nothing. Quentin > > > 2013/12/1 Samiya Illias <[email protected]> > >> We exist, then why should we reject the idea of having been created, just >> because we are unable to comprehend or define our Creator? Is that not >> intellectual dishonesty? >> >> Samiya >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 01-Dec-2013, at 3:33 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > On 11/30/2013 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> Brent, >> >> >> >> I hope you don't mind I re-answer this. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 28 Nov 2013, at 21:19, meekerdb wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or >> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, >> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, >> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, >> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit, >> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, >> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, >> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, >> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, >> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, Hades, Hanuman, >> Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), Hephaestus, Hera, >> Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Huitzilopochtli, >> Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, >> Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, >> Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, >> Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna Mater, Maia, Marduk, >> Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, >> Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, >> Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, >> Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, >> Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, >> Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, >> Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, >> Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, >> Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, >> Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, >> Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil and Zeus. But I >> see no reason to believe any of them exist. >> >> >> >> >> >> So the question is: do you see a reason to disbelieve all of them? >> > >> > I didn't say I "disbelieved", I said I saw no reason to believe in >> them. I *fail* to believe in them. I think of "belief" as admitting >> degrees. I disbelieve in them FAPP, i.e. if I have to act I will act as if >> they didn't exist. But I cited the list to contradict your idea that >> conceiving of gods makes it harder to disbelieve in God. I think it is the >> other way around; it's harder to disbelieve in something undefined. Which >> makes me wonder how you can be so dogmatic that fundamental matter does not >> exist? >> > >> > >> >> What if the list just missed the one that exists? >> >> >> >> As far as I know, honestly, it seems to me that only Ganesh, or >> Ganesha, is incompatible with comp. >> >> >> >> I really love Ganesh, though, perhaps for that very reason. When kid, >> Ganesh made his father angry and the angry father cut Ganesh's head, and >> threw it away. Her mother was *very* angry, and ordered the father do find >> a new head quickly, and the father, in the hurry, cut the head of of the >> first elephant passing by, and that is why Ganesh has an elephant head >> (which reminds me of the cuttlefish which I love even more). >> >> >> >> I guess you see the problem with comp. It is a version of the >> brain-exchanged thought experience. But is it really contradictory with >> comp? That's needs the thought experiences with (degrees of) amnesia, and >> addressing the question who are we and how many person really exist. >> >> >> >> But how could I argue about Ohyamatsumi or RheaSabazius, Tlaloc? I >> would need to study their stories to conclude. >> >> >> >> Also, it looks that list misses the divinities that you can met by >> smoking some herb, like the four kanobo Gods, and Daunarani, ... with >> tobacco, or simply Maria, you know, the Mother of God, that you can meet >> with Salvia (according to the Christian Mazatecs). >> >> >> >> There is no algorithm capable of deciding of two machines computes or >> not the same function, so you can imagine the difficulties with the >> nameable non machines, or gods and goddesses. >> >> >> >> And the big one, cannot be in such a list, I guess. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> We might try to decide on a definition of "atheism", as that >> notion is very unclear, and I have rarely obtain a definition on which >> atheists agreed. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> It's as clear as the negation of 'theist'. >> >>>> >> >>>> But "theist" is not clear. >> >>> >> >>> My point exactly. >> >> >> >> >> >> But if you agree that "theist" is not clear, you agree that "atheist" >> is not clear either. >> > >> > But "theist" is only unclear because you suppose that you can cite some >> ancient philosopher as *really* defining "theism". I accept the modern >> theory of dictionaries that meanings are defined by usage; and the usage of >> "God" is a superperson who created the world, wants to be worshipped, and >> judges, rewards and punishes. >> > >> >> It creates an opposition where I see beliefs everywhere, and good >> willing people trying to understand each others, mixed with people who >> insult instead. >> >> >> >> I have many sympathy for many atheists, and I share with them >> important ideas, like no artificial magic, occam razor, rationalism, and >> the anticleralism, and the "anti-autoritarism" (of the first one), but they >> get trapped in* believing* they have solved the theological question, or >> trapped in the deny that there was even a question, leading to a form of >> "don't ask", which slow down the possible progresses, and becomes an >> autoritarist meme by itself. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>>> Some identify "God" with the God of their own culture. In science, >> we try to get a concept as independent of human and culture as possible. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I use "God" in the greek sense of Truth (the one that we can >> search about us, or hope or fear, in life and afterlife, whatever it is). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Except nobody here is speaking Greek. And the Greeks had plenty of >> gods that had nothing to do with truth; in fact they were given to >> deception. >> >>>> >> >>>> I was of course alluding to the greek (neo)platonists. They did >> invented the God used by both the abramanic cultures (even if terribly >> deformed, notably by the abandon of science about it, and the use of >> authoritative arguments, by Christians, Muslims, and perhaps by the Jewish >> (with Maimonides, to some extent). >> >>> >> >>> Christianity, specifically Aquinas and Augustine, tried to merge >> Greek philosophy into the Jewish Messianic religion of Christianity. But >> the abrahamic religions owe far more to the Babylonian, Egyptian, and >> Zoroastrian religions than to Greek. >> >> >> >> OK. But let us not confuse the terrestrial implementation of the >> religious process and the true relations that machines can have with truth. >> > >> > But you are exactly the person confusing them in your writing (if not >> your thoughts) by using language of religions to express simple >> mathematical ideas. >> > >> > Brent >> > >> > >> >> As I said, thanks to Babbage, Turing, Post, Church, discoveries of the >> universal numbers, we get an interesting "simple" Number Theology, which >> can be used as an etalon in comparative theology. >> >> >> >> In the first match Plato 1 and Aristotle 0. >> >> >> >> It is not the last match in the comp soccer cup! >> >> >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to [email protected]. >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
