2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

>
> On 01 Dec 2013, at 08:45, Samiya Illias wrote:
>
>  We exist,
>>
>
> OK.
>
>
>
>  then why should we reject the idea of having been created,
>>
>
>
> Or of having a non physical origin. "creation" involves the idea of
> someone doing something with something, and so that idea take some
> "something" for granted, and so miss by construction the goal of explaining
> why we exist. Like Quentin said, "God created the universe" leads to the
> problem of what is God, why and how has It created the universe, etc.
>
> Also, in some culture, the universe can be the result of God sneezing, or
> the result of God being unable to control the consequence of his creation
> of something else. the danger of saying that we are created by God is
> apparent in the doctrine that God has made the humans into his own image.
> This leads to the idea that humans are somehow single out from all
> creatures, when the truth might be that all creature are equal and
> interconnected (as we see ecologically). We cannot pretend that we are the
> favorite of God. You know the theory that God created the cat in his own
> image, and then created the humans to be the servants of the cats ...
>
>
>
>
>  just because we are unable to comprehend or define our Creator?
>>
>
> OK. But then God is only a pointer to our ignorance. If we cannot
> comprehend God, we cannot use It as an explanation.
> Here computationalism put some light by explaining that something (may be
> just the arithmetical truth) is intrinsically ignored by all finite
> creature. So if we are machine, there is something which transcend us, and
> I think this is closer to the rational conception of the mystical
> experience and of the God of the greeks and the mystics.
>
>
>
>
>  Is that not intellectual dishonesty?
>>
>
> It is dishonesty only when an alternative religion is proposed and
> presented not as a religion, but as scientific facts.
> Atheists are not honest, because by denying a God or all God, they replace
> it without saying by another (impersonal) God,


That's not true....


> without understanding that this is a theological theory which assumes a
> theological axiom: the belief in a primitive physical universe/matter.
>

I don't believe in a primitive physical universe and I don't believe in
god, I see no contradiction with that... it's because you redefine what god
means you're able to say such things, but that is dishonest.

Quentin


>
> Some will call Occam razor, meaning that they extrapolate from their
> dreamy (with comp) experience that a physical universe exist primitively.
> But there are no evidence for that. Indeed with comp it is far more
> plausible that we belong to an infinity of computations whose existence is
> provable in elementary arithmetic: meaning: with comp we might lead to
> disbelieve in the material creation, meaning that comp is "atheist" with
> respect to the God of the atheists.
>
> My point is that among all religions, atheism is the most dishonest one,
> as they pretend to do science, and they mock the other as not being
> serious. But science is agnostic and makes its assumption explicit, and
> keep in mind that those are assumptions.
>
> From the point of view of an aristotelian believer (like many christians
> and basically all atheists) comp can be described as being a super-atheism:
> as it might contradict both the existence of a creator *and* the existence
> of a creation (physical universe). But there is a universal dreamer (in
> arithmetic) and he is confronted to a "ONE", the arithmetical truth which
> cannot not influence the dreams possible and their statistics (dreams obeys
> laws).
>
> It remains a big mystery: arithmetical truth, or our belief in
> arithmetical truth. But this is assumed by all scientist, and comp explain
> everything from it.
>
> Samiya, in case you dont' see how all dreams are "generated" by
> arithmetical truth, you can search on Google and Youtube with the key
> "Mandelbrot set" which illustrates nicely how a very simple number relation
> (a quite little program) can generate something infinitely complex (and
> rather beautiful according to many). The Mandelbrot set (restricted on the
> rational numbers) might be a compact representation of a universal
> dovetailer, in which case *you* are infinitely distributed ion its
> infinitely complex border.
>
> The "god" of comp, like the God of most religion is transcendent, and so
> we cannot use it as an explanation of the Origin, as it is more complex
> than the origin, but it might gives the key for the End. God is a soul
> attractor. It can also be a hope for possible harmony in the chaotic
> complex reality. It is more like a goal, than an explanation per se.
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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Batty/Rutger Hauer)

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