On 02 Dec 2013, at 18:51, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/2/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 02 Dec 2013, at 05:37, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/1/2013 12:12 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
but there is no known proof (or even an argument offered by materialists) that matter cannot be explained in terms of something simpler.

Of course not.  That would the point the it's fundamental.

The point of Jason if I may, is that there is no way to explain numbers without assuming them... but there are ways to explain matter without assuming it.

I'm not convinced of either of those points. And as I noted "to be explained" does entail that something cannot be fundmental, only that it might not be.

OK, but then we use Occam razor. Thermodynamic cannot disprove the existence of invisible horse.

Of course I meant to write, "And as I noted "to be explained" does NOT entail that something cannot be fundamental".

But I don't think it's so simple as applying Occam's razor. In my example "red" is an experience that from the perspective of conscious thoughts may have no explanation, i.e. is fundamental.

Like the guy in Washington cannot explain why he is the one in Washington. But we can explain why he cannot explain it, and in general we can explain why machines are first person confronted with arithmetical first person truth that they have to feel as fundamental and unexplainable.

But from the perspective of biology has an explanation in terms of physics and chemistry. From an evolutionary perspective it has an explanation in terms of survival advantage. So Occam's razor cuts different ways depending on the perspective.

This is an abstract "base problem", but with comp the points of view don't depend on the choice of base machine, and we can refine the use of Occam razor for each points of view. In fact we can use it only one time, for the Turing universal ontology.



You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Reply via email to