On 02 Dec 2013, at 18:51, meekerdb wrote:
On 12/2/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Dec 2013, at 05:37, meekerdb wrote:
On 12/1/2013 12:12 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
but there is no known proof (or even an argument offered by
materialists) that matter cannot be explained in terms
of something simpler.
Of course not. That would the point the it's fundamental.
The point of Jason if I may, is that there is no way to explain
numbers without assuming them... but there are ways to explain
matter without assuming it.
I'm not convinced of either of those points. And as I noted "to
be explained" does entail that something cannot be fundmental,
only that it might not be.
OK, but then we use Occam razor. Thermodynamic cannot disprove the
existence of invisible horse.
Of course I meant to write, "And as I noted "to be explained" does
NOT entail that something cannot be fundamental".
But I don't think it's so simple as applying Occam's razor. In my
example "red" is an experience that from the perspective of
conscious thoughts may have no explanation, i.e. is fundamental.
Like the guy in Washington cannot explain why he is the one in
Washington. But we can explain why he cannot explain it, and in
general we can explain why machines are first person confronted with
arithmetical first person truth that they have to feel as fundamental
But from the perspective of biology has an explanation in terms of
physics and chemistry. From an evolutionary perspective it has an
explanation in terms of survival advantage. So Occam's razor cuts
different ways depending on the perspective.
This is an abstract "base problem", but with comp the points of view
don't depend on the choice of base machine, and we can refine the use
of Occam razor for each points of view. In fact we can use it only one
time, for the Turing universal ontology.
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