On 12/10/2013 10:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote:




On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:19 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 12/10/2013 9:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote:



    On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:53 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
    <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

        On 12/10/2013 5:23 PM, LizR wrote:
        On 10 December 2013 09:06, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com
        <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:


            Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible 
which
            leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox:

            1. Non-local, faster-than-light, relativity violating effects
            2. Measurements have more than one outcome

            In light of Bell's theorem, either special relativity is false or
            many-world's is true.

        Bell realised there was a third explanation involving the relevant laws 
of
        physics operating in a time symmetric fashion. (Oddly this appears to 
be the
        hardest one for people to grasp, however.)

        Yes, that idea has been popularized by Vic Stenger and by Cramer's
        transactional interpretation.


    Collapse is still fundamentally real in the transactional interpretation, 
it is
    just even less clear about when it occurs.  The transactional 
interpretation is
    also non-local, non-deterministic, and postulates new things outside of 
standard QM.

    I think it's still local, no FTL except via zig-zags like Stenger's.



This table should be updated in that case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics#Comparison_of_interpretations

Hmm. I think the transactional waves are not FTL but in an EPR experiment would relay on backward-in-time signaling. Not sure why it says TIQ is explicitly non-local?


What are the zig-zags?

By "traveling" back in time and then forward a particle can be at two spacelike separate events.


    Why? Everett showed the Schrodinger equation is sufficient to explain all
    observations in QM.

    But it's non-local too.  If spacelike measurement choices in are made in 
repeated
    EPR measurements the results can still show correlations violating Bell's 
inequality
    - in the same world.


Can you explain the experimental setup where this happens?

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9810080


    The Schrodinger equation has solutions in Hilbert space, which are not 
local in
    spacetime.


Are you referring to momentum vs. position basis ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/pr/which_basis_is_more_fundamental/ ) or something else?

No, just that a ray in Hilbert space, a state, corresponds to a solution of the SWE over configuration space (with boundary conditions) which in general is not localized in spacetime.


    Is it just so people can sleep soundly at night believing the universe is 
small and
    that they are unique?

        There's also hyperdeterminism in which the experimenters only *thinks* 
the can
        make independent choices. t'Hooft tries to develop that viewpoint.


    Hyper-determinism sounds incompatible with normal determinism, as it seems 
to imply
    a the deterministic process of an operating mind is forced (against its 
will in
    some cases), to decide certain choices which would be determined by 
something
    operating external to that mind.

    I think I can use the pigeon hole principle to prove hyper-determinism is
    inconsistent with QM.  Consider an observer whose mind is represented by a 
computer
    program running on a computer with a total memory capacity limited to N 
bits. Then
    have this observer make 2^n + 1 quantum measurements. If hyperdeterminism 
is true,
    and the results matches what the observer decided to choose, then the
    hyper-determistic effects must be repeating an on interval of 2^n or less.

    There's nothing in the theory to limit the capacity to local memory, if
    hyper-determinism is true, it's true of the universe as a whole.


What if we have two remote locations measuring entangled particles, and whether they measure the x-spin or y-spin for the i-th particle depends on the i-th binary digit of Pi at one locations, and the i-th binary digit of Euler's constant at the other location? How can hyper-determinism force the digits of Pi or e?

?? I think the i-th digit pi and the i-th digit of e are already determined.

Brent

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