On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:49 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

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> On 12/16/2013 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:06 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> On 12/16/2013 10:02 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, but why are you being anthropocentric? >>> >> >> I thought that was your position, or at least (observer-centric), in >> that numbers only have properties when observed/checked/computed by some >> entity somewhere. >> >> >>> If there can exist a physical process that is a bisimulation of the >>> computation of the test for primeness, then the primeness is true. >>> Otherwise, we are merely guessing, at best. >>> >> >> When we check the primaility of some number N, we may not know whether >> or not it is prime. However, eventually we run the computation and find >> out either it was, or it wasn't. >> >> My question to you is when was it determined that N was or was not >> prime? Any time we re-check the calculation we get the same result. >> Presumably even causally isolated observers will also get the same result. >> If humans get wiped out and cuttlefish take over the world and build >> computers, and they check to see if N, is prime is it possible for them to >> get a different result? >> >> My contention is that it is not possible to get a different result, >> that N was always prime, or it was always not prime, and it would be prime >> (or not prime) even if we lacked the means or inclination to check it. >> >> >> That's fine. But it's a leap to go from the truth value of 17 is prime, >> to 17 exists. That's what I mean by mathematicians assuming that >> "satisfying a predicate" = "exists". >> >> > All you need are truth values. If it is true that the recursive > function containing an emulation of the wave function of the Hubble volume > contains a self-aware process known as Brent which believes he has read an > e-mail from Jason, then it is true that the aforementioned Brent believes > he has read an e-mail from Jason. We don't need to add some additional > "exists" property on top of it, it adds nothing. > > > It does if you don't have an axiomatic definition of all those predicates > such that satisfaction of the predicate is provable. Otherwise you're just > assuming there's a mathematical description that implies existence. That > might be true, but I think it's not knowable that it's true. It's like > "the laws of physics". > > Truth is independent of axiomatic systems as shown by Godel. This implies you don't need a universe containing a person who writes down a set of axioms to create the truth of some number's primality, or Brent meeker's thoughts in some large recursive function. With this understanding, you can get Wigner's effectiveness (a rational, law following, mathematically describable universe), the "first cause", and the answer to the existence and relation between mathematical truth and mathematicians' minds all for free. This is much simpler than proposing an independent physical reality, some nebulous undefinable connection between mathematics and mathematicians, and some shock at the absence of any magic (not mathematical describable, or not modelable) things in our own universe. Why should anyone who subscribes to Occam not favor "arithmetical realism" over "physical universe + unreasonable effectiveness + (either arithmatical realism or mystical source of truth in mathematicians' minds)"? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.