On 23 Dec 2013, at 20:11, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

Bruno,Thanks for your comments. However I think you are coming at Realityfrom the POV of human logico-mathematical theory whose results youare trying to impose on reality.

`Not at all. I start from molecular biology, which suggest we are`

`Turing emulable, and I derive consequences only from that assumption.`

`I don't defend any truth. I just say, if we are machine then ...`

My approach is to closely examine reality and then try to figure outhow it works and what ITS innate rules and structures are.

Not sure what you mean by "examining reality".

I would probably agree with much of what you say, if you were sayingit about human logico-mathematical structures, but the logico-mathematical structure of reality is not bound by human rules.

`In which logic? What are your starting assumption? You seem to be`

`unaware that a "reality" is only an assumption (except for`

`consciousness here and now). We might be dreaming, for example.`

It runs according to its own logic and science is the process oftrying to figure out what those rules are and how they work...For example, reality is clearly a computational process,

It cannot be. Independently of any assumption.

and it runs against pure information which is the fundamental stuffof the universe. There is simply no other way current informationstates of reality could result from previous ones other than by acomputational process.

You seem to ignore the UD-Argument. It refutes that idea.

How that computational process works must be determined by examiningreality itself. We may try to make sense of it in terms oftraditional human math theory, but when there are differences thenreality always trumps human math theory, which applies to human mathrather than reality's logico-mathematical system.

`I need to know exactly what is your theory, which seems to be non`

`computationalist. You need non-comp to get a primitive physical reality.`

Bruno

Edgar On Friday, December 20, 2013 6:52:54 PM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote: All,The fundamental nature of reality is examined in detail in my recentbook on Reality available on Amazon under my name.Marchal is on the right track, but reality consists not just ofnumbers (math) but is a running logical structure analogous tosoftware that continually computes the current state of theuniverse. Just as software includes but doesn't consist only ofnumbers and math, so does reality. In fact the equations of physicalscience make sense only when embedded in a logical structure just asis the case in computational reality.Modern science has a major lacuna, the notion that all of reality ismathematical, that prevents science from grasping the completenature of reality. In truth all of reality is logical, as issoftware, and the mathematics is just a subset of the logic. Afterall, modern science with its misguided insistence that all ofreality is mathematical, has had nothing useful to say about thenature of either consciousness or the present moment, the two mostfundamental aspects of experience. However I present a computationalbased information approach to these in my book among many otherthings.The second clarification that needs to be made to the post onMarchal's work is that human math and logic are distinct from theactual math and logic that computes reality. The human version is ageneralized and extended approximation of the actual that differsfrom the actual logico-mathematical structure of reality inimportant ways (e.g. infinities and infinitesimals which don'tactually exist in external reality).I can explain further if anyone is interested, or you can read aboutit in my book...Edgar Owen --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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