I am sympathetic to your defense of the search for truth. I would differ with 
you, however,  and probably everyone on this list, in stating that science must 
have a goal. Some Transhumanists are ok with the entire human endeavor turned 
over to the Machines, and this includes Science. It may be inevitable, in fact. 
I disagree, and believe that science needs to be harnessed for human betterment 
(I am sure we all do) and, perhaps, diminishing what some theologians have 
called, "The Human Condition."  I am all for directing some of the scientific 
search bent towards things that benefit our species, in profound ways. 

Everyone, on this mailing list disagrees with me and has no interest or wanting 
to waste valuable time with such a pursuit. But, as the old English children's' 
song goes, "The Cheese Stands alone."  Apologies, if I am coming across as 
limburger ;-)  Joyes Noel, to all,  (Tho' tis' not my faith). 

Mitch


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 6:14 am
Subject: Re: God or not?




On 24 Dec 2013, at 17:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


 
My iteration is simply this: How does this help our species, how might this all 
change the human condition? My interruption in this flow of rational, logical, 
and analytical reasoning. I am sorry if this offends, but like Dr. Suess's 
Who's in Whoville, The Horton Hears a Who, and not the Grinch one, I must 
rudely, ask,, how this could help us? 



Science is the search of truth, even if the truth is not helpful. 
That is why science needs more courage than anything else. It is a cure of 
wishful thinking a priori.


The separation of theology from science has abandoned the field to the wishful 
thinking and its political exploitation by those who want think at our place in 
the fundamental matter (life and death, and health).


In that sense, coming back to modest scientific interrogative thinking in 
theology, could help everybody in front of the truth, especially if truth 
appears to be not as friendly as we would have liked. 


Bruno






Us, the pitiful, violent, human species. God, Mind, Consciousness, and all 
that? It needs to be asked, although, yes, some efforts are purely 
intellectual. I always home in, the Existential. 
 
 
 
Sincerely,
 
 
 
Mitch
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
 From: Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
 To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: God or not?
 
 
 
Bruno, 

 
 
No. The totality of reality must be logically consistent and logically complete 
if it is computational (for which there is overwhelming evidence) because if it 
wasn't it would fall apart at the inconsistencies and pause at the 
incompletenesses and could not exist. Thus since it does exist it must be 
logically consistent and logically complete.
 

 
 
True that only direct experience is certain on the most fundamental level, but 
it is also clear upon consistent examination that direct experience is never as 
it seems to be in the sense that there is clearly a deeper reality that is 
obscured by direct experience. If we accept that reality is logical, which it 
must be to exist, then all else follows and we can continue to discuss. 
Otherwise all would be meaningless and futile which it clearly and 
self-evidently is not, since if reality was not logical we could not function 
within it which we do to varying degrees of competence. Therefore our direct 
experience tells us that reality is a consistent logical structure.
 

 
 
We can simply define what reality is = everything that exists. We don't have to 
"search" for reality since it is everywhere and cannot be escaped. What we 
search for is not reality, but its structural details.
 

 
 
Lastly no, I do not believe in any "primitive physical reality". Not at all. At 
its fundamental level reality is information running in ontological energy 
which is not anything physical, it's simply my name for the actuality and 
presence of existence which is information and realness in the present moment 
rather than anything physical. It is the actuality and presence of reality 
which manifests as a present moment in which everything, including ourselves, 
exists. It is the locus of reality which conveys actual reality upon the 
computationally evolving information forms within it. Because of its 
non-physical nature OE is difficult to properly describe as Lao Tse noted about 
the Tao which was his take on OE.
 

 
 
Edgar
 

 
 On Monday, December 23, 2013 1:48:40 PM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
 
All,
 
 The question of whether God exists is meaningless without first giving some 
definition of what is meant by God, of how God is defined. Otherwise everyone 
is talking about different things and nothing will go anywhere.
 
 If you need a God there is only one possible rational definition and that is 
to just define God as the universe itself. First there is now absolute 
certainty that God does exist (all the interminable meaningless arguments 
vanish), and second his attributes now become the proper subject matter of 
science and reason rather than ideology, faith or myth.
 
 But most certainly the dogmas of all the organized religions are all atavistic 
myths in the same category as Zeus and Odin which, like them, should have been 
discarded millennia ago....
 
 Edgar
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
 


 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



 
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



 



-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Reply via email to