Dear Edgar, There is another way to get particle property conservation: Particles that happen to have the same properties have a symmetry that is unique to QM: the exchange symmetry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_interaction>. Study it carefully. :-)

This symmetry does not require a singular collection of properties to be "dimensional" or "inherently existing". It just says that if a pair of particles are indistinguishable (for some observer!) there will exist a variation in the wavefunction of the system made of the combined pair. If that variation is of a positive character, the particles will be Bosons (relative to each other). If the variation is of a negative character, the particles will be Fermions (relative to each other). There are other possible variances that I will not get into, but the upshot of this symmetry is that it acts to group particles that have the same properties into groups and it can be argued that charge, spin and mass properties flow from that grouping. There is no need for an external computational space or system to do the job. I do agree a little bit with this that your wrote: "But this, like all aspects of the classical 'physical' world, is actually a computational illusion. This classical spacetime doesn't actually exist. It must be continually maintained by myriads of continuing quantum events or it instantly vanishes back into the computational reality from which it emerged." But for other reasons. Any illusion that there exists a classical 'physics' world out there that we are somehow floating in is a figment of our imaginations. The universe is KNOWN to not be classical. Can we bury that corpse already? OTOH, I do agree that space-time is a construction that could be considered as you describe: "continually maintained by myriads of continuing quantum events" If the quantum interaction process ends, the particular events vanish. What we observe as space-time is merely the photons that carry the information about the events and so we have an illusion of persistence of events that could lead one to imagine that there exists a global present moment. What is interesting is that the evolution of the phase of a QM system IS a computation in the sense that it is a transformation of information! WE do get something like a computational system that is generating space-time and all events in it, but if we treat it as a single computer time vanishes. This is known from study of the Wheeler-DeWitt equation: H=0. We can obtain a universe where any observer will have the experience of time IF and only IF we do not use a single wave function for the universe and thus do not require a single computer to perform the computation. We can associate separate QM wave functions to each and every point of the space-time manifold and use the evolution of the phase of these as the local clock of those points on the manifold. We end up with an infinite number of computers generating space-time, not one. On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote: > All, > > I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum > events more clearly and succinctly. > > Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. In > particular where the usually imagined single pre-existing dimensional > spacetime background does NOT exist. > > Now consider how we can get a spacetime to emerge from the computations in > a way that conceptually unifies GR and QM, eliminates all quantum > 'paradoxes', and explains the source of quantum randomness in the world. > > There is an easy straightforward way though it takes a little effort to > understand, and one must first set aside some common sense notions about > reality. > > Assume a basic computation that occurs is the conservation of particle > properties in any particle interaction in comp space. > > The conservation of particle properties essentially takes the amounts of > all particle properties of incoming particles and redistributes them among > the outgoing particles in every particle interaction. > > The results of such computational events is that the particle properties > of all outgoing particles of every event are interrelated. They have to be > to be conserved in toto. This is called 'entanglement'. The outgoing > particles of every event are always entangled on the particle properties > conserved in that event. > > Now some particle properties (spin, mass, energy) are dimensional particle > properties. These are entangled too by particle interaction events. In > other words, all dimensional particle properties between the outgoing > particles of every event are interrelated. They have to be for them to be > conserved. These relationships are exact. They must be to satisfy the > conservation laws. > > Now assume every such dimensional entanglement effectively creates > a spacetime point, defined as a dimensional interrelationship. > > Now assume those particles keep interacting with other particles. The > result will be an ever expanding network of dimensional interrelationships > which in effect creates a mini spacetime manifold of dimensional > interrelations. > > Now assume a human observer at the classical level which is continuously > involved in myriads of particle interaction (e.g. millions of photons > impinging on its retina). The effect will be that all those continuous > particle events will result in a vast network of dimensional > interrelationships that is perceived by the human observer as a classical > spacetime. > > He cannot observe any actual empty space because it doesn't actually > exist. All that he can actually observe is actual events with dimensional > relationships to him. Now the structure that emerges, due to the math of > the particle property conservation laws in aggregate, is consistent and > manifests at the classical level as the structure of our familiar > spacetime. > > But this, like all aspects of the classical 'physical' world, is actually > a computational illusion. This classical spacetime doesn't actually exist. > It must be continually maintained by myriads of continuing quantum events > or it instantly vanishes back into the computational reality from which it > emerged. > > > Now an absolutely critical point in understand how this model conceptually > unifies GR and QM and eliminates quantum paradox is that every > mini-spacetime network that emerges from quantum events is absolutely > independent of all others (a completely separate space) UNTIL it is linked > and aligned with other networks through some common quantum event. When > that occurs, and only then, all alignments of both networks are resolved > into a single spacetime common to all its elements. > > E.g. in the spin entanglement 'paradox'. When the particles are created > their spins are exactly equal and opposite to each other, but only in their > own frame in their own mini spacetime. They have to be to obey the > conservation laws. That is why their orientation is unknowable to a human > observer in his UNconnected spacetime frame of the laboratory. > > However when the spin of one particle is measured that event links and > aligns the mini-spacetime of the particles with the spacetime of the > laboratory and that makes the spin orientations of both particles aligned > with that of the laboratory and thereafter the spin orientation of the > other particle will always be found equal and opposite to that of the first. > > There is no FTL communication, there is no 'non-locality', there is no > 'paradox'. It all depends on the recognition that the spin orientations of > the particles exist in a completely separate unaligned spacetime fragment > from that of the laboratory until they are linked and aligned via a > measurement event. > > Edgar > > On Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:16:28 PM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> >> All, >> >> I want to try to state my model of how spacetime is created by quantum >> events more clearly and succinctly. >> >> Begin by Imagining a world in which everything is computational. In >> particular where the usually imagined single pre-existing dimensional >> spacetime background does NOT exist. >> >> Now consider how we can get a spacetime to emerge from the computations >> in a way that conceptually unifies GR and QM, eliminates all quantum >> 'paradoxes', and explains the source of quantum randomness in the world. >> >> There is an easy straightforward way though it takes a little effort to >> understand, and one must first set aside some common sense notions about >> reality. >> >> Assume a basic computation that occurs is the conservation of particle >> properties in any particle interaction in comp space. >> >> The conservation of particle properties essentially takes the amounts of >> all particle properties of incoming particles and redistributes them among >> the outgoing particles in every particle interaction. >> >> The results of such computational events is that the particle properties >> of all outgoing particles of every event are interrelated. They have to be >> to be conserved in toto. This is called 'entanglement'. The outgoing >> particles of every event are always entangled on the particle properties >> conserved in that event. >> >> Now some particle properties (spin, mass, energy) are dimensional >> particle properties. These are entangled too by particle interaction >> events. In other words, all dimensional particle properties between the >> outgoing particles of every event are interrelated. They have to be for >> them to be conserved. These relationships are exact. They must be to >> satisfy the conservation laws. >> >> Now assume every such dimensional entanglement effectively creates >> a spacetime point, defined as a dimensional interrelationship. >> >> Now assume those particles keep interacting with other particles. The >> result will be an ever expanding network of dimensional interrelationships >> which in effect creates a mini spacetime manifold of dimensional >> interrelations. >> >> Now assume a human observer at the classical level which is continuously >> involved in myriads of particle interaction (e.g. millions of photons >> impinging on its retina). The effect will be that all those continuous >> particle events will result in a vast network of dimensional >> interrelationships that is perceived by the human observer as a classical >> spacetime. >> >> He cannot observe any actual empty space because it doesn't actually >> exist. All that he can actually observe is actual events with dimensional >> relationships to him. Now the structure that emerges, due to the math of >> the particle property conservation laws in aggregate, is consistent and >> manifests at the classical level as the structure of our familiar >> spacetime. >> >> But this, like all aspects of the classical 'physical' world, is actually >> a computational illusion. This classical spacetime doesn't actually exist. >> It must be continually maintained by myriads of continuing quantum events >> or it instantly vanishes back into the computational reality from which it >> emerged. >> >> >> Now an absolutely critical point in understand how this model >> conceptually unifies GR and QM and eliminates quantum paradox is that every >> mini-spacetime network that emerges from quantum events is absolutely >> independent of all others (a completely separate space) UNTIL it is linked >> and aligned with other networks through some common quantum event. When >> that occurs, and only then, all alignments of both networks are resolved >> into a single spacetime common to all its elements. >> >> E.g. in the spin entanglement 'paradox'. When the particles are created >> their spins are exactly equal and opposite to each other, but only in their >> own frame in their own mini spacetime. They have to be to obey the >> conservation laws. That is why their orientation is unknowable to a human >> observer in his UNconnected spacetime frame of the laboratory. >> >> However when the spin of one particle is measured that event links and >> aligns the mini-spacetime of the particles with the spacetime of the >> laboratory and that makes the spin orientations of both particles aligned >> with that of the laboratory and thereafter the spin orientation of the >> other particle will always be found equal and opposite to that of the first. >> >> There is no FTL communication, there is no 'non-locality', there is no >> 'paradox'. It all depends on the recognition that the spin orientations of >> the particles exist in a completely separate unaligned spacetime fragment >> from that of the laboratory until they are linked and aligned via a >> measurement event. >> >> Edgar >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/7G5zm5OFT0k/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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