Brent, You seem to be saying 1. that the matter that enters a black hole through the event horizon warps space as it enters and 2. that then that space warp persists as the matter disappears into the singularity.
1. is of course correct but 2. isn't. Consider a mass traveling through empty space. As it travels it obviously does warp the space around it but as soon as it moves away that warping dissolves. The warping is carried along by the mass and exists only around a mass. So by your thinking the warping should persist all along the path of any traveling mass but it doesn't. The earth and sun don't leave permanent trails of space warping behind them as they move through space. The warping travels WITH the moving mass and is maintained only by the continuing presence of the mass. So there can be no warping left around a black hole if the matter falling into it actually were to disappear. The warping is maintained ONLY by the continuing presence of mass, just like it is around a mass traveling through empty space. Do you understand my point here? Edgar On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:58:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > On 1/25/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Brent, > > Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's > experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the > mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There > must be some cause. > > > Sure. In the case of a star that collapses to a BH the cause is the > matter which became so compressed that a singularity formed - and then the > matter disappeared into it. That's why the Schwarzschild metrice is a > vacuum solution, no matter. > > It's much more reasonable to assume the mass that enters a black hole > does exist inside the black hole as it does produce a gravitational effect. > > > I don't trust your intuition as to what's "reasonable" - and you shouldn't > either. > > My question is how that gravitational effect, which must travel at the > speed of light, propagate from the interior of the black hole when nothing > else can because it would have to travel at FASTER than the speed of light > to do so? > > > It doesn't have to propagate. Each bit of matter falling in already had > warped the space around it and as it crosses the event horizon it leaves > this bit of warpage outside contributing to the total of the BH. You've > got and 17th century view of gravity as something that "reaches out and > pulls on stuff". > > > Re your implication of gravitation perhaps not being mediated by force > carrying particles. I think there are a number of reasons to doubt the > existence of gravitons. > > 1. For a flow of gravitons to explain gravity they would all > continuously have to flow in the same direction since gravity acts only in > one direction (between masses at least). That means there would have to be > an inexhaustible source of gravitons flowing from ONLY OUT from every mass. > What's the source of that inexhaustible flow? > > > See above comment. > > > 2. Gravity is the only force that cannot be shielded. Thus if gravitons > existed they would have to flow effortlessly THROUGH everything that exists > (NON-interaction) at the same time they cause gravitational effects > (INTERACTION). An apparent contradiction.... > > 3. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that gravitons actually > exist. > > > That's not quite true. The prediction of slowing of rapidly orbiting > double stars due to energy loss to gravitational radiation has been > confirmed by observation. If that radiation is quantized, which it must be > to be consistent with QM, then it consists of spin-2 bosons, aka gravitons. > > > 4. Gravitons are not part of the Standard Model. > > So all and all I think there is plenty of reason to doubt the existence > of gravitons... > > > Since the theory is non-linear, gravitons are probably just a weak field > approximation. There is also Sakaharov's gravity theory and the entropic > gravity theory. Unfortunately gravity is so weak it's hard to get any > experimental evidence for or against these theories. > > Brent > > > Edgar > > > > On Friday, January 24, 2014 10:31:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> On 1/24/2014 4:41 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> > Brent, >> > >> > No, my proposed dark matter effect has nothing to do with black holes. >> Black holes are >> > caused by accumulations of actual visible matter, not by the Hubble >> expansion of space... >> > >> > However I do have a question for you. Since gravitational changes >> propagate at the speed >> > of light how does the mass inside a black hole produce gravitational >> effects outside the >> > black hole? If light can't come out how can gravitational effects come >> out? >> >> You are thinking of gravity as mediated by force particles, like photons >> mediate the EM >> forces. But (at least classically) gravity isn't a force, it's just a >> shape of space and >> as I responded to Liz, there's not mass in a black hole, no T_u_v term in >> the Einstein >> equation. It's a vacuum solution. That's why it doesn't make any >> different what falls in >> to create the black hole. The effects outside the event horizon are just >> that the space >> is warped there just *as if* the black hole were a massive object. >> >> Brent >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
