Hi Terran,
On 11 Mar 2014, at 17:10, Terren Suydam wrote:
Hi Bruno,
Sure, "consciousness here-and-now" is undoubtable. But the p refers
to the contents of consciousness, which is not undoubtable in many
cases. "I am in pain" cannot be doubted when one is feeling it, but
other felt sensations can be doubted, e.g. see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956899/
Such illusions of experience can even be helpful, as in
Ramachandran's Mirror Box therapy for phantom limb sufferers, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3468806/
Illusions of experience are evidence that what we experience is of
our brains' constructions, like a waking dream, guided in healthy
brains by the patterns of information streaming from our sense organs.
Exactly: like a walking dream. That's the root of the Bp & p idea, in
the Theaetetus. To do the math I concentrate to "rich" (Löbian)
machine for the "B", but the idea of defining knowledge by true belief
is an act of modesty with respect to the question if we are dreaming
or not, or more generally, if we are wrong or not.
Brains that are defective in this manner result in schizophrenia
and presumably other dissociative pathologies.
OK.
For me it all casts doubt on whether Bp & p is an accurate
formalization for experience, but I might be missing something.
As I said above, it is a simplest "meta" definition which capture the
"main thing" (the truth of the experience) without needing to define it.
Also, for the "physical" first person *experience*, Bp & p, which is
only the knower, is not enough, you will need Bp & <>t & p, which by
incompleteness has its own logic, quantum like when restricted to the
sigma_1 truth. You need a reality (<>t).
Can you make sense of Bp & p for a schizophrenic who hears voices?
If a schizophrenic says that he hears voices, and if he hears voice
(mentally, virtually, arithmetically, brain-biologically, ...), then
he knows he hears voice.
An insane guy who says that he is Napoleon does not know that he is
napoleon, but he believes it only. He still might know that he
believes being Napoleon, and be only ignorant or denying that this is
false.
How about your own salvia experiences?
It is very hard to describe, even more to interpret. And I am biased.
It is indeed: [](... what-the-f.) and ... what the f. Most plausibly.
It is like remembering forgotten qualia since eons.
It might confirms the idea that brains, machines, words, theories
filter consciousness only.
Consciousness would be a close sister of (arithmetical) truth.
Salvia might open the appetite for platonism, but of course it is also
a question of taste.
Bruno
T
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 10 Mar 2014, at 16:28, Terren Suydam wrote:
Question for you Bruno:.
You say (with help from Theaetetus) that 1p experience is given by
Bp & p. Yet, our experience is often deluded, as in optical
illusions, or in various kinds of emotional & psychological denial.
Can we ever really say that our knowledge, even 1p experience,
refers to anything True?
In public? No.
In private? Yes.
I would say.
Then in the frame of theories about such 1p things, like
consciousness, we can decide to agree on some "property" of the
notion. Then, "consciousness-here-and-now" might be a candidate for
a possible true reference, if you agree consciousness-here-and-now
is undoubtable or incorrigible.
Then we can approximate many sort of truth, by the very plausible,
the probable, the relatively expectable, etc.
If someone complains, is the pain real or fake? Eventually it is a
question for a judge.
The truth is what no machine can really grasp the whole truth, but
all machines can know very well some aspect of it, I think, but very
few in justifiable modes.
Bruno
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.