On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> In the present state and the physical transition rules from one state to > another ? if the transition is reversible then from only the current state > you can infer the past state, without it being "encoded" in the present > state... the current state + transition rule is enough. > Exactly, which is why we can store thousands, maybe millions of seconds of video per second on youtube without having to replace the known universe with web servers. Telmo. > > Quentin > > > 2014-03-19 16:33 GMT+01:00 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: > > Telmo, >> >> No, that was Brent's claim. I'm asking him to tell us how it works. Where >> is all that additional information about past states stored if he thinks >> none of it is lost? >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:32:48 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Telmo, >>>> >>>> No, compression is totally unable to explain the storage of total >>>> information in a universe which continually doubles its amount of >>>> information from one Planck time to the next and continually adds that >>>> amount to the cumulative total. >>>> >>> >>> So you're essentially claiming that the universe is increasing >>> exponentially in complexity? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:17:28 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Brent, >>>>>> >>>>>> If information is not being lost then the amount of information in >>>>>> the universe is increasing at a tremendous rate as new events occur, and >>>>>> has been since the beginning. So where is all that new information being >>>>>> stored? How can ever increasing amounts of information be being stored in >>>>>> the SAME amount of matter states? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> By an increase in Shannon entropy, up to a point. >>>>> This is why you can compress computer files, for example. >>>>> >>>>> Telmo. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Presumably you do agree that information can't just float around >>>>>> somehow without actually being encoded in actual matter states? >>>>>> >>>>>> I think I know the answer but would like to hear your take on it >>>>>> first.... >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 8:57:57 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything >>>>>>>> the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, >>>>>>>> decoherence has the same effect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was only asking about the theoretical possibility, given >>>>>>> unrealistically perfect information about the state of the system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The universe (assuming unitary QM) is reversible. In fact from the >>>>>>> standpoint of QM there is no arrow of time - it's deterministic, just >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> Laplace's universe. So, as always, when the word "possibility" is used >>>>>>> there has to be some context. To *calculate* a history of the universe >>>>>>> from it's present state would require knowing its *complete* present >>>>>>> state, >>>>>>> including your mental state. Is that "theoretically possible"? I >>>>>>> think it >>>>>>> involves a paradox of self-reference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To put it another way, in the Game of Life, even with perfect >>>>>>> information, you can't trace the state of the system backwards because >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> loses information. So even the laws of physics couldn't work backwards >>>>>>> in a >>>>>>> universe based on the GOL. QM, I'm informed, doesn't lose information, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> (very much in theory) you could work backwards - or (less in theory) the >>>>>>> laws of physics could. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes the universe doesn't lose information like the GoL. But >>>>>>> relative to any point it loses information across spacetime horizons. >>>>>>> So >>>>>>> there's no way to gather that information up into a calculation unless >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> have some God's eye view from outside the universe, in which case you >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> see the past anyway. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's a couple of nice papers about this by Yasunori Nomura: >>>>>>> arXiv:1205.267v2 is a popular exposition and arXiv:1205.5550v2 is a more >>>>>>> technical paper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wasn't asking whether I could build a chronoscope and watch the >>>>>>> past happening on TV. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
