On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 16 Apr 2014, at 13:49, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 15 Apr 2014, at 22:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:44 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 4/15/2014 4:38 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> An interesting related hypothesis is that language originated >>>> from synesthesia caused by psychadelics. >>>> >>>> Telmo. >>>> >>>> >>>> I had heard that Telmo. Do you have a reference, a link? >>>> >>> >>> Unfortunately not. I think I heard in a talk. Might be related to >>> McKenna's "stoned ape" theory, but I can't find anything... >>> >>> >>> That seems very far-fetched considering that animals already exhibit >>> rudimentary language and that its selective advantage for a tool making >>> social animal is huge. >>> >> >> I agree that the idea that language was bootstrapped by psychadelics is >> far-fetched. I see it as a fun hypothesis more than anything else, for the >> reasons you mention. >> >> >> OK. But I doubt it. Synesthete people seems to have an abnormal wiring of >> the brain connecting parts which are not connected in other people, and >> they are usually handicaped by their ability. It is very stable, if they >> see the number 4 yellow, when asked again 20 years later, it is the same >> color. >> > > True, but here it's perhaps important to make a distinction between > permanent synesthesia and the temporary kind that can be caused by > psychedelics. > > > OK. > I think we agree that psychotropic substance play some role in the > development of life in animal. Then it is even more obvious for > civilsation, if you look at the story of wine, (blood's christ!), tobacco, > etc. Now I have not studied enough the relation between language and > synestesia, and the relation between psychotropic and synesthesia to be > able to conclude anything, actually. > Ok, we agree on all of this. > > Bruno > > > > > >> >> >> >> >>> I don't see how synesthesia could do anything but confound and confuse >>> the development of language. >>> >> >> Maybe so for the development of direct symbols, but I can imagine it >> playing a role in the emergence of more abstract ideas. Even in modern >> times we can see this at work, to a degree. Many of the cultural ideas that >> originated in the 60s, and that still reverberate today, were "unearthed" >> by using LSD, cannabis, etc. >> >> I find the effects of psychoactive substances particularly interesting >> for AI research, because they show a profound way in which our brains >> differ from the current model of computation. Computer programs typically >> crash if we mess with their computational substrate. We flood the brain >> with an inhibitor for a certain type of receptor or with the analogue of >> some transmitter and it doesn't collapse. It does all kinds of interesting >> things, some good and some bad. Sometimes you get "the dark side of the >> moon" -- if musical talent is already present, of course :) >> >> >> I do think psychedelic, and other brain pertubation can help to solve >> problem. Some technic in optimization and in AI are based on that. You can >> enhance the finding of a minimum by shaking a surface with some ball on it. >> The brain is highly redundant, with the information distributed and >> slightly different, so by blocking some information path, new path can be >> found, and sometimes with a difference (and sometime with some benefices). >> The brain do drugs all the time, it is part of our functioning, and indeed >> animals drugs themselves very often, and plants exploits this to manipulate >> insects. >> >> It looks also that the brain might have some hardcoded solution to >> support abnormal stress, like in grave illness and near death, and so some >> drugs can perhaps trigger those "dormant" programs, and people can get idea >> of what happens in such stress, or near death. That is consistent with >> evolution, because your species can benefit from particular abilities to >> survive in those high stress conditions, and it can help for surviving >> trauma in aggressive animals (like human), so that it can benefits to some >> population of genes. >> Such change of brains in high stress have been evidenced in mammals like >> mice and rats. Some animal brains secrete endo-tranquilizer when a prey is >> captured by some predator. >> Now there are millions of drugs, and they trigger different responses. >> Benefits and harms necessitate case by case analysis. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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