On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:50 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> I am not attacking the EU, but I am trying to see if your impressions of > the US are based on experience or news. Since it is based on experience, > were there any neighborhoods you would have been intimidated to visit, or, > since, I am prompting you, as a non-US citizen, and speaking to the US > crime rate-regarding executions, a part of a city where it's best to be > cautious? > I was warned against certain areas and I went there anyway. They looked more grimy, but never had a problem. I fondly remember a poor crack addict who wanted two things from me: cigarettes and to tell me about Jesus. I agreed with both and everything was fine. > My response is really for your post before this one, and your belief that > (apparently) crime is prevalent everywhere in the US, because we have the > death penalty. > I never claimed this, perhaps you are confusing me with another poster. I oppose the death penalty on principle: I believe it is wrong to kill other human beings, except when absolutely necessary for self-defence. I believe that violence generates more violence, but I never made any claims about the crime rate in the USA. > It seems that this was not your experience in real life, which would > contradict, perhaps, your world view. > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier than >> we, less spoiled yes, but happier no. >> > > Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows? > There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but this > could be for a number or reasons. > > >> Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth is >> a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants. >> > > I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have been > to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south and middle > america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more times -- although > I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks me out. Overall the > USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to strangers than in Europe. I am > also an admirer of parts of USA history, including its constitutional > principles. I think the declaration of independence is a beautiful document > and a turing point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable > right, that the government exists to protect. > > >> Dopamine is not justice, >> > > Sure. "Justice" is a superstition. > > >> nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a >> place where the streets run red with blood? >> > > No, as per above. > > >> What communities in the US are the most violent? >> > > The police and the military. > > >> I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am fascinated >> by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals, life is thus, >> better, and so are we, as societies. >> > > The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so > far-fetched to me. But hey... > > >> In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in >> Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same >> thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh was >> executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh killed >> 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his sentencing, how long >> will Breivik remain in jail? >> > > There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for > us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police forces > are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking for people > to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime rates, not to > provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it appears to work > quite well. > > Telmo. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > To: everything-list <[email protected]> > Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 7:23 am > Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! > > > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier than >> we, less spoiled yes, but happier no. >> > > Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows? > There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but this > could be for a number or reasons. > > >> Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth is >> a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants. >> > > I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have been > to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south and middle > america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more times -- although > I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks me out. Overall the > USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to strangers than in Europe. I am > also an admirer of parts of USA history, including its constitutional > principles. I think the declaration of independence is a beautiful document > and a turing point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable > right, that the government exists to protect. > > >> Dopamine is not justice, >> > > Sure. "Justice" is a superstition. > > >> nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a >> place where the streets run red with blood? >> > > No, as per above. > > >> What communities in the US are the most violent? >> > > The police and the military. > > >> I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am fascinated >> by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals, life is thus, >> better, and so are we, as societies. >> > > The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so > far-fetched to me. But hey... > > >> In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in >> Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same >> thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh was >> executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh killed >> 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his sentencing, how long >> will Breivik remain in jail? >> > > There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for > us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police forces > are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking for people > to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime rates, not to > provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it appears to work > quite well. > > Telmo. > >> You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our >> hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This >> might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the environment >> that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we have technology >> and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits artificially to relieve >> people in need, without causing further violence. The only thing preventing >> us are superstitions inherited from a distant past. In 2011, Anders Breivik >> sought to punish race-traitors, and the Socialist Party summer camp, >> >> Telmo. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 7:05 am >> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You may be correct indeed, but if being part of the "civilized world" >>> protects violent, predatory, criminals, including, (drumroll) Islamists and >>> Putin, the I suppose I will demur from being civilized. Most capital >>> crimes, even in Texas, are crimes of passion. I don't see it (no death >>> penalty) as being civilized, I view it as an excuse to be uncaring toward >>> the victim's family. >>> >> >> The desire for vengeance is hard-wired in our brains. We get a good >> dopamine hit from it, which might relief the suffering of people who are >> grieving. Now, in 2014, we can recognise this mechanism for what it is. It >> was probably useful for our hunter-gatherer ancestors, but it is >> maladaptive in a globalised world with 7 billion people and nuclear weapons. >> >> You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our >> hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This >> might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the environment >> that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we have technology >> and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits artificially to relieve >> people in need, without causing further violence. The only thing preventing >> us are superstitions inherited from a distant past. >> >> Telmo. >> >> >>> The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has >>> been fully achieved in most of the civilised world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 6:57 am >>> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:47 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> No death penalties. I am not sure I agree, but if this is the goal, >>>> then things need to be done really differently. >>>> >>> >>> Hum? Check this out: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capital_punishment.PNG >>> >>> The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has been >>> fully achieved in most of the civilised world. >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>>> I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: LizR <[email protected]> >>>> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Mon, Jun 2, 2014 6:48 pm >>>> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >>>> >>>> On 3 June 2014 10:28, spudboy100 via Everything List < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> To seek your goal I am guessing elements of society, law, and >>>>> technology, must improve. >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal". >>>> >>>> >>>>> For many, nothing is broken, or they have an interest in things >>>>> continuing as they are. We'd have to get into problem soving mode to do >>>>> all >>>>> that. The world does not seem to be in a problem solving mood. >>>>> >>>>> This is of course true, "business as usual" is nideed in the process >>>> of destroying the world. Not sure what it has to do with the previous topic >>>> but FWIW I agree. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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