On 18 Jun 2014, at 02:19, chris peck wrote:
>> That is logically impossible from the first person point of view.
You describe the 3p view only.
Nice straw man! Whats practically impossible is for one point of
view to simultaneously accomodate the experience of both surviving
and dieing.
Yes; and that is why the first person discourses differentiates
(assuming the n-iterated WM-duplication, and give the arbitrary
histories, whose predictable one get negligible as n augments.
No one questions that.
Glad to hear that! You can move to step 4.
However, that an individual could anticipate both surviving and
drowning, and anticipate the certainty of both experiences in a
duplication context doesn't even approach logical impossibilty.
Exactly, in the 3-1 view. You talk about your (future) self from
outside, gently assuming the 1p consciousness to both. That is useful
to define the domain of the indeterminacy indeed, but is not related
to the experience effectively lived by any experiencers resulting from
the experiment.
>> In the 3p pictures, yes. Not in the 1p views. Given the protocol
given, you cannot from the first person view simultaneously drawn
and not-drawn. There is no telepathy between the copies.
The fact that copies have different experiences doesn't introduce
doubt into the mind of the original about what he will experience.
Without making precise which points of view you talk about, this is
ambigous.
In this instance, he will anticipate both.
Sure, excellent strategy, given that he will live with certainty only
one of that "both". He will not anticipate living both "at once" in
the 1p view, even if he can bet he will be both at once, in God's eye.
I think we agree so, what about step 4?
Bruno
he will have 1p nightmares about drowning and 1p dreams about the
glory of the prestige. Alternatively, he will reject the idea that
they are actual copies of him at the requisite substitution level
and never conduct the illusion (he'll say no to the doctor).
You cant have it both ways.
In anycase, the movie is clear on the matter. It is the magician's
macabre fate to know he will suffer drowning to ensure he can reap
the glory. Its what makes him such a pitiful character.
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:08:24 +1200
Subject: Re: Films I think people on this forum might like
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Seconded. One could I suppose put the posts in small faint letters
to make them less noticeable, but I can't see any SPOILER tags on
this forum!
On 18 June 2014 03:28, Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote:
On behalf of the people who haven't actually seen the film, could
people please put "Spoiler Alert" in the email before you give away
crucial details to a movie? Many of the films mentioned in this
thread I haven't seen. If I had read Chris's post before watching
The Prestige I would have been pissed off.
Thanks,
Terren
On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 12:20 AM, chris peck <[email protected]
> wrote:
>> It makes even more mysterious your resistance to UDA
Well The Prestige is a film about obsession and the lengths people
go to meet them. Its not about the UDA.
It does contain a teleport machine in it and the naughty magician
keeps duplicating himself and killing off one of the duplicates.
At one point, when arguing about what sacrifices he has made for his
art, he points out that every night he is in a state of horror
because he doesn't know whether he will end up at the back of the
stage or drowning in the vat. ofcourse, he is just in a state of
denial because he ought to know precisely what he will experience:
survival to the prestige AND drowning. Its not as if there could be
any doubt about it. The set up makes both experiences certain. But
its not really a flaw in script, because the audience sees it
clearly. Its why its such a macabre ending. Here is man so obsessed
with bettering his rival that he reduces his life to a living hell
drowning himself every night. The goody magician's sacrifices are
bad enough, losing a finger, losing a wife, losing a brother. But
the naughty magicians sacrifices are deliberate and knowing self
annihilation and its this that makes his story so horrifically tragic.
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 13:53:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Films I think people on this forum might like
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> "The Prestige" may just be the best movie in the last 15 years.
> So we agree on this.
Yes.
> It makes even more mysterious your resistance to UDA
I see absolutely no contradiction between thinking that "The
prestige" is saying something profound that rings true and thinking
that the things that the Universal Dance Association says that are
profound are not true and the things that it's saying that are true
are not profound.
John K Clark
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