On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> wrote: > > That depend on what you call self interest. Understood in the narrow sense > as sort term egoistic interest without a notion of common good, a > democratic regime would not last a single year. It is evident, even a child > can understand that if a Judge, or a politician only attend his own > interest, they will sell themselves to the one that pays more for their > prevarications. That absurd despise of morality as irrelevan for politics, > as if politics works like a mechanism of rational rules enforced externally > without the need of internal self control is what is the cause of the > unbelievable corruption that we can see everywhere. specially in Europe. >
I would argue that trade is the mechanism by which self-interest becomes aligned with the common good. I further argue that the strong the trade networks, the less power the oligarchy has, and this is the reason the oligarchy uses demagogy to place limits on free trade. They correctly perceive it as an existential threat. Consider and extreme scenario where courts are private companies. If you and me want to sign a contract, we must also agree on a private court to have jurisdiction over that contract. We agree to abide by that court's decision. We will tend not to agree on courts runs by corrupt judges, so corrupt judges go out of business. This strong trade network creates incentives that aligns the self-interest of the judges with impartiality. If I don't abide by the court decision, then people will start being afraid of entering into contracts with me. My self-interest becomes aligned with following the law. A private police might be hijacked by criminals, but in a well integrated network of free-trade, eventually cooperation becomes more profitable than aggression. So the it's in the best interest of the police to protect the cooperators, because they can pay better rates for the police's services. Can such a system be implemented? I don't know. It might be impossible to get to such a well integrated economy. I am just describing the scenario "at the limit" to justify my intuition that trade = peace, and that the oligarchy does not desire an approximation to this scenario. I am suspicious of people who advertise the need for more and more centralised power, because they usually aspire to hold that power. > > And this is precisely the interest that is favoured by the mechanics of > democracy and his aritmetical calculation of majorities by politicians > oriented toward short term, four year mandates. The inevitable consequence > is self disolving. > > It is like a familly ruled by democracy. It is a question of time that the > short time interest of the kids will destroy the familly. > > From time to time democracy is questioned and for very good reasons. The > only difference are the cycles of questioning of democracy. Some countries > arrive at the logical consequence of democracy: anarchy or gobernment of > the mob (as Plato called it) in less that forty years. Other, like EEUU or > UK has lasted for hundred years. Probably by the strong sense of comunity > and common good let´s say patriotism that exist in these countries. > > Concerning religion, It makes me laugh when people like you say that > separation of chuch and state is so so important when the oldest democratic > countries have nationl churches, and in most of them the parliament can > determine the precepts of these national churches. > > 2014-12-17 17:11 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >> >> >> On 17 Dec 2014, at 13:03, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> Starting from the fact that The NHS was introduced by Bismark in the >> German Empire. for the same reasons that it is sustained today by >> "democracies": populism. >> >> Since the introduction of NHS in England no new hospital was constructed >> until recently. >> >> Democracy, an element of the liberal state, lives on premises that it can >> not itself guarantee. (Bockenforde). It is based on the idea that people >> will not act or vote for their inmediate interests but will vote for >> anything that maintain the common good forever. That is absolutely false. >> The only thing that maintain democracy is not democracy, but the morality >> of the people. That morality is contunuously underminded by democracy >> itself by means of the logic of populism and the formation of majorities >> that produce false and impossible and incompatible political promises for >> different groups of people. That divides and confront ones with others. >> >> It is based on the idea that a million idiot votes within an urn produces >> wise decissions. On the idea that consensus produce truth. >> >> Democracy is destined to be hyaked by false democrats that do not believe >> in democracy but want to abuse it from inside . They are the worst >> antidemocrats. And the responsibles of that hyaking are te dumb people that >> believe acritically in democracy. >> >> >> >> I disagree. Democracy is based on the fact that people will vote for >> their immediate interest, and that it will be implemented reasonably well >> by opportunist politicians, and if they don't succeed people will stop >> voting against them. (so it is not just vote, but a promise that you can >> vote again if dissatisfied). >> >> Democracy is not perfect, and indeed it can regress easily to tyranny. >> Like a living being can die, or a cell become cancerous, democracy can >> easily be perverted and misused by bandits or ideologues. There is nothing >> we can do about that, except investing in means (like education, logic, >> reasoning, ...) helping people to not fall in the trap of the demagogs. >> >> It is not the system which makes bad people. It is bad people which makes >> the system bad. >> >> How americans have ever accepted prohibition remains a bit of a mystery >> to me. In this context, I am not so much for legalization of drugs than for >> penalization of prohibitionists, and education explaining how prohibition >> illustrates well a technic to kill democracy and its most important key >> features like the separation and independence of the different powers, >> including the press. >> >> But the institutionalization of religion, especially when the state and >> the religion are not well separated is a deeper cause of the problem for >> democracies. It is that mentality which has made possible prohibition: the >> very idea that other people can decide for you between the good and the >> wrong. That would not have happened if the spiritual domain remained what >> is really: an investigation domain like any others, calling for >> experiments, experiences and dialog, and no normative rules ever. Those are >> object of laws, voted by the people or representative delegates of the >> people. >> >> What would you suggest in place of democracy? If a democracy can be >> hijacked, don't you think that anything else couldn't even more >> easily be hijacked? >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> 2014-12-16 15:44 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >>> >>> >>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 19:51, LizR wrote: >>> >>> What is funny - as well as sad and frightening - is the number of >>>> people here who apparently don't believe in democracy, even in principle. >>>> Democracy is the idea that we can elect people to do things for everyone >>>> else (the NHS, conservation, social security, infrastructure, regulations, >>>> police, army science etc etc). Yet all I can see here is people saying that >>>> it doesn't work. I think the truth is that it can be hijacked and THEN it >>>> doesn't work. The NHS (despite everything) was one of the greatest >>>> achievements of the 20th century, after all. And it was introduced by a >>>> government because of its beliefs and principles. >>>> >>> >>> I agree completely with you. Like academies, democracies are the worst >>> except for anything else. >>> Many people criticize the system, and this *benefits* those who pervert >>> the system. Our democracies are sick (and partially hijacked by corporatist >>> interests), but this needs we must heal them, not condemn it. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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