Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 08 Jun 2015, at 03:30, Bruce Kellett wrote:
My point was that in order for time to emerge from a block universe
certain structure was necessary --
Well, this is doirectly false with comp, in the sense that all you need
is the emulation of a brain of a person believing in time, and those
exists all in the block mindscape constituted in a tiny part of arithmetic.
No, it is not false. Even with comp. If the block universe is to have an
inherent time dimension, than that structure is essential, whether it
comes from primitive materialism or from comp, it cannot be avoided. If
for no other reason than that is what we see when we look around us.
we need a 4-dim manifold with a local Lorentzian metric, and physical
events must be arranged with a particular structure on this manifold
-- they cannot just be arranged at haphazard. So the way events are
embedded is in fact crucial.
Yes, but that occurs easily, as we need only the brain emulation. The
problem is that we get too much aberrant dreams, and thus an inflation
of possibilities. But the math parts shows that self-reference put the
eaxct constraints required to have a measure on the consistent
continuations, even a quantum one.
So then why do we get too many aberrant dreams? You contradict yourself.
If the necessary structure drops out easily from comp, then show it, and
show why we see what we see and not the white rabbits.
The question is then whether this 4 dimensional manifold with a local
Lorentzian metric exists in arithmetic?
It does not have to exist in arithmetic, it needs to be recoverable from
the FPI in arithmetic.
Is there a difference?
It might exist in arithmetic, and not have the right measure. it might
also not exist in arithmetic, but recoverable from the FPI. or both case
can be true: it exists in arithmetic, and is recoverable from the FPI.
In that case the measure would be computable, and I doubt this is
possible, but fundamentally, it is an open problem. of course,
approximation of it exists in arithmetic. Arithmetic contains all
simulations of all physical phenomena, with 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ... 100^100,
... decimals exact.
In other words, you don't have a clue either.
If not, there is no possibility for a time variable in arithmetic per
se, and consequently nothing can 'emerge' from arithmetic, since
emergence is a temporal concept.
We need only the "dital time" to get the digital brain emulation, to get
the arithmetical mindscape. If a physical time emerges or not remains to
be seen. Note that S4Grz1 and X1* logic already brought a subjective time.
If you don't get physical time, then your theory is a failure. Getting
subjective or mental time is not enough, since clocks do not run
according to our subjective impression of the passage of time.
Note that it is important to distinguish between structures that can
be described mathematically and the structure of arithmetic or
mathematics themselves.
Yes. Quite important. Even after the reversal, although physics is made
purely arithmetical, it is only through machine's psychology and
theology that this happens, and the science physics are explained to be
different from the mathematical science. For example mathematical
(arithmetical) existence is some thing like ExP(x), but physical
existence is [2]<2>Ex [2]<2>P(x). Physics remains untouched by comp.,
except it is put on logico-arithmetical grounds. What change is
physicalism in metaphysics. It becomes testable, and false if comp is true.
But comp is false, as has been demonstrated by many observations. Strong
AI, or the possibility that part or all of your brain can be emulated by
a computer does not entail that consciousness is only a computation. Nor
does it entail that only computations can be conscious. In fact, it is
quite difficult to come up with a definition of computation such that
only computers and brains perform computations. The structure of a
Turing machine can be emulated by a rock, for instance.
Bruce
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