On 12 June 2015 at 17:40, Bruce Kellett <bhkell...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> LizR wrote:
>
>>
>> You also say that 1p phenomena - in a physical theory - have to be
>> eliminated (as per Dennett) or elevated to something we could call
>> "supernatural" (for the sake of argument - in any case, something not
>> covered by the underlying physics). But the alternative is apparently that
>> subjective phenomena exist inside assumed-to-be-real arithmetic, and the
>> (appearance of a) physical world somehow emerges from that. Both of these
>> are problematic. The first seems plausible to me (in the elimiativist
>> mode), but implausible in that it reifies matter and doesn't have an
>> ontological status that could be called "final", but merely one that is
>> "contingent" (i.e. "we're here because we're here because...") while
>> arithmetical truth, if there is such a thing, does.
>>
>
> This is a false distinction. Arithmetical 'truth' is no more fundamental
> or final than physical truth.


I'm glad you have access to a metaphysical oracle which tells you these
things. The rest of us have to remain agnostic, (which is why I said "if
there is such a thing").


> Arithmetic is, after all, only an axiomatic system. We can make up an
> indefinite number of axiomatic systems whose theorems are every bit as
> 'independent of us' as those of arithmetic. Are these also to be accepted
> as 'really real!'? Standard arithmetic is only important to us because it
> is useful in the physical world. It is invented, not fundamental.


So you say, and you may be right. Or you may not. The question is whether
2+2=4 independently of human beings (and aliens who may have invented, or
discovered as the case may be, arithmetic).

>
>
> Bruce
>
>
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