On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 6:37 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> >> Religion requires dogma about the nature of reality, > > > > > Let us avoid the term religion. > Fine idea. > > > better to use "theology" > Astrology or palmistry would work just as well as theology, so would examining animal entrails. > > Theology, when done scientifically > ... > ... is no longer theology. > >> >> There is no evidence a mind needs a infinity of calculations, > > > > > Indeed. but a brain, or any piece of matter do. > Matter can perform calculations, but there is no evidence even one calculation needs to exist before matter can exist, let alone an infinite number of them. > >>> >> >>> The brain is only a local map of the locally accessible computational >>> continuation. >> >> >> >> >> If the brain is only the map and mind is the territory then changing the >> map won't change the territory, but changing the brain *does* change the >> mind. So something does not compute. > > > > > Right. > Then the brain is *NOT* the map, the brain is the territory. > > > Matter does not compute. > Bullshit. I have absolutely no trouble in providing examples of matter computing, but whenever I ask you for an example of computations being made without the use of matter that obeys the laws of physics all I get is some reference to a book about Robinson arithmetic . And no book, regardless of how thick it is, can even calculate 2+2. And by the way, you also need to tell me how you intend to store information because a book is also made of matter that obeys the laws of physics, and so are the magnetic spots on a disk drive, and so are a stream of photons in a fiber optic cable. >> >> A mind needs calculations, calculations >> n >> een a brain, > > > > > No. calculations exists in arithmetic. > Show me. And don't show me a book, show me one calculation that uses nothing but arithmetic. Just show me. > > > You need only assume predicate calculus, 0≠s(x), > 0≠s(x) can't calculate diddly squat! Prove me wrong, start the 0≠s(x) Computer Corporation and drive INTEL into bankruptcy. > >> >> a brain needs matter that obeys the laws of physics, and matter that >> obeys the laws of physics does NOT need a mind. What's circular about that? > > > > > It is just incoherent with respect of Mechanism. > Perhaps, but then for Bruno Marchal words have meanings that they don't have for anyone else (for example God, religion, theology, proof) and they seem to change from day to day, so I don't know what "Mechanism" means today. I do know that if X is Y and Y is Z then X is Z is not circular or incoherent. >> >> Screw Aristotle, his contempt for observation stopped science from >> advancing for 2000 years! > > > > > Many will disagree. > Who, besides you? > > > You have forget that science progress when people make mistaken, > All the great scientists made mistakes from time to time, but the scientific method eventually corrected them. Aristotle's blunder was of a entirely different nature, if his advice were followed, if you never checked theory against observation, errors would never be corrected. >> >> I assume that "physical" means stuff that continues to exist even if >> nobody believes in it. I am certain the moon exists even if nobody is >> looking at it, but I am far less certain pi would exist if there were no >> intelligent beings to think about it, and Turing's non-computable numbers >> (the vast majority of the Real numbers) I find even more problematic. > > > > > That is the Aristotelian theology > Screw Aristotle and screw theology . > > > Pi can be said to exist > Can be said by who? By someone made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. > > > its defining relations can be proved in elementary arithmetic > Can be proved by who? By someone made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
