Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really in
the domain of physics, or it is something we might call a miracle because
we really do not understand it.
On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:28:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 7 Feb 2018, at 15:40, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com
> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote:
>> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell
>> <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > It is interesting in some ways. However, it involves speculations on
>> > we have no knowledge of.
>> > The idea involves these filters. The one "behind us" involves the
>> barrier to
>> > intelligent life similar to us. There are few examples of brainy
>> > similar to us. Cetaceans have large brains and clearly their songs
>> > complex information important to them. It is not clear that this is
>> > equivalent to complex thought such as mathematics. The other filter
>> > post-ET development where such life is limited by either
>> > or the limits of light speed and the unapproachable scale of putative
>> > interstellar flight.
>> > I suspect planets with complex life above that of prokaryotic-like life
>> > few in number per galaxy. It is hard to know how even prokaryotic-like
>> > starts. The ribosome is a complex of RNA with polypeptides, and this
>> > is fairly universal. As yet we are not sure how this came about. So it
>> > be that the life bearing planets are already extremely rare. This would
>> > planets with complex life most likely very rare, and then up the ladder
>> > occurrence of intelligent life exceedingly rare.
>> > The occurrence of life might be a case of what is called hard
>> > Soft emergence is something like the emergence of chemistry from the
>> > mechanics of atoms. Strong emergence is the occurrence of entirely
>> > principles, where this is not an established scientific concept. This
>> is of
>> > course a completely unknown territory. How life emerged is one of the
>> > scientific questions.
>> Are you sure this hard/soft distinction is meaningful? Life is what
>> happens when imperfect self-replicators enter the stage. It is true
>> that this appears to be a very unlikely event, and that how it
>> happened is an open scientific question, but what do you mean by
>> "different principles"?
> Hard emergence is where a set of principles spontaneously occur without
> any formal or causal connection with other principles.
> I think that this is called a “miracle”.
> Even if that exists,we cannot use this in science, and will say: we just
> don’t understand yet.
> We are familiar with the absorption of Goldstone bosons by gauge bosons
> that give them a longitudinal mode and hence a mass. This would be a case
> of soft emergence. Of course the boundary between hard and soft emergence
> is hard to know. The ribosome is a pretty invariant structure in biology,
> and it is horribly complex. This in some embarrassing way sounds similar to
> the irreducible complexity argument of the creationist camp. As a result
> there may be a sort of intellectual impasse here, and potentially some
> clearer understanding of what is meant by hard emergence might play a role.
> “Hard emergence” is the strong-atheists rendering of “miracle”. I don’t
> think this notion makes any sense. You might try to give at least one
> example of hard emergence, because, to be honest, I can’t give any sense to
> such an expression.
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