Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really in 
the domain of physics, or it is something we might call a miracle because 
we really do not understand it.

LC

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:28:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 7 Feb 2018, at 15:40, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell 
>> <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> > It is interesting in some ways. However, it involves speculations on 
>> things 
>> > we have no knowledge of. 
>> > 
>> > The idea involves these filters. The one "behind us" involves the 
>> barrier to 
>> > intelligent life similar to us. There are few examples of brainy 
>> animals 
>> > similar to us. Cetaceans have large brains and clearly their songs 
>> contain 
>> > complex information important to them. It is not clear that this is 
>> > equivalent to complex thought such as mathematics. The other filter 
>> involves 
>> > post-ET development where such life is limited by either 
>> self-extermination 
>> > or the limits of light speed and the unapproachable scale of putative 
>> > interstellar flight. 
>> > 
>> > I suspect planets with complex life above that of prokaryotic-like life 
>> are 
>> > few in number per galaxy. It is hard to know how even prokaryotic-like 
>> life 
>> > starts. The ribosome is a complex of RNA with polypeptides, and this 
>> thing 
>> > is fairly universal. As yet we are not sure how this came about. So it 
>> could 
>> > be that the life bearing planets are already extremely rare. This would 
>> make 
>> > planets with complex life most likely very rare, and then up the ladder 
>> the 
>> > occurrence of intelligent life exceedingly rare. 
>> > 
>> > The occurrence of life might be a case of what is called hard 
>> emergence. 
>> > Soft emergence is something like the emergence of chemistry from the 
>> quantum 
>> > mechanics of atoms. Strong emergence is the occurrence of entirely 
>> different 
>> > principles, where this is not an established scientific concept. This 
>> is of 
>> > course a completely unknown territory. How life emerged is one of the 
>> great 
>> > scientific questions. 
>>
>> Are you sure this hard/soft distinction is meaningful? Life is what 
>> happens when imperfect self-replicators enter the stage. It is true 
>> that this appears to be a very unlikely event, and that how it 
>> happened is an open scientific question, but what do you mean by 
>> "different principles"? 
>>
>> Telmo. 
>>
>
> Hard emergence is where a set of principles spontaneously occur without 
> any formal or causal connection with other principles. 
>
>
> I think that this is called a “miracle”. 
>
> Even if that exists,we cannot use this in science, and will say: we just 
> don’t understand yet.
>
>
>
>
> We are familiar with the absorption of Goldstone bosons by gauge bosons 
> that give them a longitudinal mode and hence a mass. This would be a case 
> of soft emergence. Of course the boundary between hard and soft emergence 
> is hard to know. The ribosome is a pretty invariant structure in biology, 
> and it is horribly complex. This in some embarrassing way sounds similar to 
> the irreducible complexity argument of the creationist camp. As a result 
> there may be a sort of intellectual impasse here, and potentially some 
> clearer understanding of what is meant by hard emergence might play a role.
>
>
> “Hard emergence” is the strong-atheists rendering of “miracle”. I don’t 
> think this notion makes any sense. You might try to give at least one 
> example of hard emergence, because, to be honest, I can’t give any sense to 
> such an expression. 
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> LC 
>
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