On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> It occurred to me a case of hard emergence. The outcome of a quantum 
> measurement is such. I have iterated how I think this is connected to 
> self-reference, so I will not repeat that here. 
>

It would be useful IMO, if you did just that. How can random measurement 
results be connected with "self referential", whatever that means? A good 
idea, sometimes even a bad one, is worth repeating for evaluation. AG
 

> However, the outcome is completely random and has no causal basis. It 
> emerges for no particular reason, such as initial conditions, and is as I 
> see it a complete hard emergence.
>
> LC
>
> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:16:58 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>
>> ​> ​
>>> You might try to give at least one example of hard emergence
>>
>>
>> ​
>> One molecule of water can't be wet but 6.02*10^ 23 molecules can be. And 
>> H2O at 31 degrees F has none of the properties of a liquid but at 33 
>> degrees F those same molecules have all the properties of a liquid; 
>> although usually emergent properties don't appear as
>> ​ ​
>> suddenly as that, it is more smooth and continuous. Day is very different 
>> from night but there isn't an exact point where one turns into the other. 
>> There is nothing mysterious 
>> ​or​
>>  miraculous going on its just that human language puts concepts into 
>> groups called "words" but the real world is messy
>> ​ ​
>> so
>> ​ ​
>> there are often intermediate
>> ​ ​
>> cases where its not clear what the correct word should be; an
>> ​ ​
>> 80 pound man is clearly thin
>> ​​
>> and a 800 pound man is clearly fat but there are values between those 
>> extremes where reasonable people can differ on what the correct word should 
>> be.  
>>
>> ​ ​
>> John K Clark 
>>
>>
>>

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