On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:42 PM, Lawrence Crowell
<goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hard emergence is either something really miraculous and thus not really in
> the domain of physics, or it is something we might call a miracle because we
> really do not understand it.

For me, emergence refers to the arisal of new properties or behaviors
when many small entities are somehow connected. Informally, I like the
statement: "more is different". Emergence is never mysterious,
although it might be complex. For example: the global financial market
emerges from the individual transactions of billions of human beings
and organizations, the ant farm emerges from the individual activities
of ants, etc. There is no magic step, although the precise connection
between scales of observation might be obscured by complexity.

This is the entire point. Emergence is epistemic: it's about us, human
beings, with our limited cognitive abilities, being able to make sense
of highly complex things. Other entities living in other spacial and
temporal scales would observe different emergent structures.

What you call "hard emergence" I would just call mystery.

Telmo.

> LC
>
> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:28:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 7 Feb 2018, at 15:40, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 6:52:27 AM UTC-6, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Lawrence Crowell
>>> <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > It is interesting in some ways. However, it involves speculations on
>>> > things
>>> > we have no knowledge of.
>>> >
>>> > The idea involves these filters. The one "behind us" involves the
>>> > barrier to
>>> > intelligent life similar to us. There are few examples of brainy
>>> > animals
>>> > similar to us. Cetaceans have large brains and clearly their songs
>>> > contain
>>> > complex information important to them. It is not clear that this is
>>> > equivalent to complex thought such as mathematics. The other filter
>>> > involves
>>> > post-ET development where such life is limited by either
>>> > self-extermination
>>> > or the limits of light speed and the unapproachable scale of putative
>>> > interstellar flight.
>>> >
>>> > I suspect planets with complex life above that of prokaryotic-like life
>>> > are
>>> > few in number per galaxy. It is hard to know how even prokaryotic-like
>>> > life
>>> > starts. The ribosome is a complex of RNA with polypeptides, and this
>>> > thing
>>> > is fairly universal. As yet we are not sure how this came about. So it
>>> > could
>>> > be that the life bearing planets are already extremely rare. This would
>>> > make
>>> > planets with complex life most likely very rare, and then up the ladder
>>> > the
>>> > occurrence of intelligent life exceedingly rare.
>>> >
>>> > The occurrence of life might be a case of what is called hard
>>> > emergence.
>>> > Soft emergence is something like the emergence of chemistry from the
>>> > quantum
>>> > mechanics of atoms. Strong emergence is the occurrence of entirely
>>> > different
>>> > principles, where this is not an established scientific concept. This
>>> > is of
>>> > course a completely unknown territory. How life emerged is one of the
>>> > great
>>> > scientific questions.
>>>
>>> Are you sure this hard/soft distinction is meaningful? Life is what
>>> happens when imperfect self-replicators enter the stage. It is true
>>> that this appears to be a very unlikely event, and that how it
>>> happened is an open scientific question, but what do you mean by
>>> "different principles"?
>>>
>>> Telmo.
>>
>>
>> Hard emergence is where a set of principles spontaneously occur without
>> any formal or causal connection with other principles.
>>
>>
>> I think that this is called a “miracle”.
>>
>> Even if that exists,we cannot use this in science, and will say: we just
>> don’t understand yet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We are familiar with the absorption of Goldstone bosons by gauge bosons
>> that give them a longitudinal mode and hence a mass. This would be a case of
>> soft emergence. Of course the boundary between hard and soft emergence is
>> hard to know. The ribosome is a pretty invariant structure in biology, and
>> it is horribly complex. This in some embarrassing way sounds similar to the
>> irreducible complexity argument of the creationist camp. As a result there
>> may be a sort of intellectual impasse here, and potentially some clearer
>> understanding of what is meant by hard emergence might play a role.
>>
>>
>> “Hard emergence” is the strong-atheists rendering of “miracle”. I don’t
>> think this notion makes any sense. You might try to give at least one
>> example of hard emergence, because, to be honest, I can’t give any sense to
>> such an expression.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> LC
>>
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