> On 10 Feb 2018, at 14:29, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:58:04 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > It occurred to me a case of hard emergence. The outcome of a quantum > measurement is such. I have iterated how I think this is connected to > self-reference, so I will not repeat that here. > > It would be useful IMO, if you did just that. How can random measurement > results be connected with "self referential", whatever that means? A good > idea, sometimes even a bad one, is worth repeating for evaluation. AG > > I have outlined on this forum how a quantum measurement is really where > quantum states measure quantum states. This is then self-referential and the > odd properties of quantum measurement may then be due to the emergence or > occurrence of principles outside of causal principles of quantum mechanics.
It has to be like that if we assume mechanics, and indeed we recover quantum logic at the place we expect a logic for the first person plural observable of the machine. Physics can no more be the fundamental science, it becomes a branch of computer science, or better, of the “theology of number” (itself a branch of pure number theory). Bruno > > LC > > > However, the outcome is completely random and has no causal basis. It emerges > for no particular reason, such as initial conditions, and is as I see it a > complete hard emergence. > > LC > > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:16:58 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be <>> wrote: > > > You might try to give at least one example of hard emergence > > One molecule of water can't be wet but 6.02*10^ 23 molecules can be. And H2O > at 31 degrees F has none of the properties of a liquid but at 33 degrees F > those same molecules have all the properties of a liquid; although usually > emergent properties don't appear as suddenly as that, it is more smooth and > continuous. Day is very different from night but there isn't an exact point > where one turns into the other. There is nothing mysterious or miraculous > going on its just that human language puts concepts into groups called > "words" but the real world is messy so there are often intermediate > cases where its not clear what the correct word should be; an 80 pound man > is clearly thin and a 800 pound man is clearly fat but there are values > between those extremes where reasonable people can differ on what the correct > word should be. > > John K Clark > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com > <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.