> On 19 Feb 2018, at 12:56, Lawrence Crowell <goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
> On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>> Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of a 
>> game like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
>> increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
>> about "knowing something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI 
>> these days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do 
>> suspect in time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and 
>> conscious. The really big changer though I think will be the neural-cyber 
>> interlink that will put brains as the primary internet nodes.
> Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten million 
> times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in connection 
> density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold that 
> advantage.
> Brent
> I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, 
> which is finite and bounded.

The machines are finite, but they are supposed to be in a not bounded space and 
time environment.

> Hofstadter's book Godel Escher Bach has a chapter Bloop, Floop, Gloop where 
> the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting program on a Turing machine.

Bounded loop prevent the machine to be universal. An halting oracle makes the 
machine more powerful than a universal machine, but still obeying the same 
machine theology. Universal machine should be in the largest class (Gloop I 

> Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a web of processors that are more 
> Floop, or free loop.

It is gloop. Or we would been unable to talk about the universal machines.

> The busy beaver algorithm is such a case, which grows in complexity with each 
> step. The computation of many fractals is this as well, where the Mandelbrot 
> set with each iteration on a certain scale needs refinement to another 
> floating point precision and thus grows in huge complexity. These of course 
> in practice halting because the programmer puts in by hand a stop.

Assuming the programmer is not lost in a loop. No universal entity is immune 
against this.

> These are recursively enumerable, and their complement in a set theoretic 
> sense are Godel loops or Gloop.

? Universal = creative set in the sense of post: it means recursively 
enumerable with a complement which is not (but is transfinitely enumerable in 
some sense). The complement is not a machine at all.

> For machines to have properties at least parallel to conscious behavior we 
> really have to be running in at least Floop and maybe into Gloop.

Universality is enough, and Löbianity is enough to be self-conscious like us.


> LC
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