> On 3 Mar 2018, at 00:16, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > > > > On 3/2/2018 2:36 PM, Dirk Van Niekerk wrote: >> It looks as if individual neurons keep firing and small local (< 4mm) neural >> networks remain intact during general anesthesia (at least due to propofol). >> However, large scale network integration is lost. So I don't think general >> anesthesia is very similar to death at the neural level at all.- >> http://www.pnas.org/content/109/49/E3377?etoc= >> <http://www.pnas.org/content/109/49/E3377?etoc=> >> >> On a different note. I have read some of the discussion and literature >> about computation and consciousness on various fora. There is a school of >> thought that matter does not actually exist and that everything can be >> explained by the existence of natural numbers and computations related to >> operators acting on these. > > Yes, that's Bruno Marchal's theory that he holds forth on in the Everything > list, firstname.lastname@example.org > <mailto:email@example.com>. It's an interesting idea and I > post there as does Lawrence, but it requires reifying all computation in the > abstract "Turing machine" sense.
You don’t need to reify the computations. It is enough you believe in the elementary axioms, like x + 0 = x. Please read the Davis “computability and unsolvability” book up to chapter 4 included. Would you say that we need to reify the natural numbers to make sense of Rieman Hypothesis? The computation are very concrete objects that we can identify with their number representation when reasoning on them. They are relational objects, well defined in each “base” chosen (a base is a Turing universal machinery, or the phi_i, or even just one universal phi_u). The whole point is to not commit oneself ontologically, except for the minimal amounts of terms needed to have a universal machinery, so that we can define what is a digital computer (a purely mathematical object, even arithmetical). Even ultra-finitism cannot make this arithmetical realism false, as RA is consistent with there is a bigger integer. Now, in Arithmetic, we listen to the numbers/machine which asserts much richer beliefs (they are Löbian, which means they obey to G, G*, etc.). > And it "predicts" things like indeterminancy and maybe linear superposition, > but I can't see that it predicts anything surprising. It explains consciousness, from arithmetical 1P/3p self-reference, and it explains matter from consciousness, making the theory testable (which might be, if true, an infinite task asking for infinite vigilance). It provides a test between Mechanism ad Materialism, and the evidences are arguably for Mechanism, I would say. It gives a transparent arithmetical representation of Plotinus or Moderatus “theory of everything” (called “theology” at that time). The interest is not providing a new physics, but a new (well, an ancient) different metaphysics, in which *matter* is explained in term of probable appearances. It generalises Everett on elementary arithmetic, through a many dream internal interpretation of arithmetic. Bruno > > Brent > >> Direct correlates between measurable brain function and reported subjective >> consciousness seems difficult to reconcile with this strictly computational >> interpretation. Also, the computational approach seems to suffer from the >> same problems as many "theories of everything" including religious ones in >> that they explain everything but cannot make any predictions because that >> cannot predict which events will NOT happen. >> >> Dirk >> >> On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-8, meekerdb wrote: >> >> >> On 3/1/2018 2:03 PM, spinozalens via Free Thinkers Physics Discussion Group >> wrote: >>> Anesthetic is as close to death you can get without doing the dying. >> >> I don't think so. Under anesthetic there is still plenty of blood flow to >> your brain and no reason for neurons to shut down to conserve resources. In >> fact many neurons continue to fire; but I don't know which ones or what >> their function is. >> >> You get a lot closer to dying if your heart stops for a few minutes, which >> the Annals of Neurology paper says causes all the neurons to shut down, but >> notes that: "...this shouldn’t be used as an end-all marker of death. Past >> research has shown that if blood and oxygen return to the brain quickly >> enough after the spreading wave, the neurons resume activity and recover >> their chemical charge. It takes several minutes for the depolarized neurons, >> sitting in this chemical cocktail, to reach a “commitment point” beyond >> which they cannot restart their function." >> >>> To your question I think it depends what you die of. Feynman on his death >>> bed remarked that dying was boring >> >> The one time I thought I would die I just felt a kind of curiosity...like >> "So this it?" >> >> Brent >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Free Thinkers Physics Discussion Group" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to atvoid-2+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:atvoid-2+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to atvoi...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:atvoi...@googlegroups.com>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/atvoid-2/309f3295-be52-41ff-8450-68dbc1b6e542%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/atvoid-2/309f3295-be52-41ff-8450-68dbc1b6e542%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org > <mailto:email@example.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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