On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:43:59 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 4, 2019 at 8:56:57 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3 Feb 2019, at 00:03, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 2:59:30 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1 Feb 2019, at 21:29, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 5:55:30 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 31 Jan 2019, at 21:10, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 6:47:12 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 31 Jan 2019, at 01:28, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 2:38:58 PM UTC-7, agrays...@
>>>>>> gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 30 Jan 2019, at 02:59, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 4:37:34 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 28 Jan 2019, at 22:50, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 7:33:05 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Jan 2019, at 09:29, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:54:43 AM UTC, agrays...@
>>>>>>>>>> gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 9:56:17 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal 
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Jan 2019, at 18:50, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 18, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal 
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17 Jan 2019, at 14:48, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 12:36:07 PM UTC, Bruno 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marchal wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17 Jan 2019, at 09:33, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 3:58:48 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2019 7:25 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 6:12:43 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/13/2019 9:51 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This means, to me, that the arbitrary phase angles have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely no effect on the resultant interference pattern 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> observed. But isn't this what the phase angles are supposed to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect? AG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The screen pattern is determined by *relative phase angles 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the different paths that reach the same point on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> screen*.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The relative angles only depend on different path lengths, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the overall 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phase angle is irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sure, except there areTWO forms of phase interference in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wave Mechanics; the one you refer to above, and another 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stackexchange links I previously posted. In the latter case, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the wf is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed as a superposition, say of two states, where we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider two 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cases; a multiplicative complex phase shift is included prior 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the sum, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and different complex phase shifts multiplying each component, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> form e^i (theta). Easy to show that interference exists in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> latter case, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but not the former. Now suppose we take the inner product of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the wf with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ith eigenstate of the superposition, in order to calculate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probability of measuring the eigenvalue of the ith eigenstate, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applying one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the postulates of QM, keeping in mind that each eigenstate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is multiplied 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a DIFFERENT complex phase shift.  If we further assume the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eigenstates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are mutually orthogonal, the probability of measuring each 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eigenvalue does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NOT depend on the different phase shifts. What happened to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interference 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrated by the Stackexchange links? TIA, AG *
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your measurement projected it out. It's like measuring which 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slit the photon goes through...it eliminates the interference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *That's what I suspected; that going to an orthogonal basis, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I departed from the examples in Stackexchange where an arbitrary 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> superposition is used in the analysis of interference. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, isn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it possible to transform from an arbitrary superposition to one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orthogonal basis? And aren't all bases equivalent from a linear 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algebra 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pov? If all bases are equivalent, why would transforming to an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> orthogonal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basis lose interference, whereas a general superposition does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not? TIA, AG*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t understand this. All the bases we have used all the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time are supposed to be orthonormal bases. We suppose that the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scalar 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product (e_i e_j) = delta_i_j, when presenting the Born rule, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quantum formalism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Generally, bases in a vector space are NOT orthonormal. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. But we can always build an orthonormal base with a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decent scalar product, like in Hilbert space, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *For example, in the vector space of vectors in the plane, any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pair of non-parallel vectors form a basis. Same for any general 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> superposition of states in QM. HOWEVER, eigenfunctions with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eigenvalues ARE orthogonal.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. And when choosing a non degenerate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> observable/measuring-device, we work in the base of its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eigenvectors. A 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> superposition is better seen as a sum of some eigenvectors of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> observable. That is the crazy thing in QM. The same particle can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> superposed in the state of being here and there. Two different 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> positions of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one particle can be superposed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is a common misinterpretation. Just because a wf can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed in different ways (as a vector in the plane can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> uncountably many different bases), doesn't mean a particle can 
>>>>>>>>>>>> exist in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> different positions in space at the same time. AG*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It has a non null amplitude of probability of being here and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> there at the same time, like having a non null amplitude of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> probability of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> going through each slit in the two slits experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, you can’t explain the inference patterns, especially in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the photon self-interference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Using a non orthonormal base makes only things more complex. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *I posted a link to this proof a few months ago. IIRC, it was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on its specifically named thread. AG*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But all this makes my point. A vector by itself cannot be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> superposed, but can be seen as the superposition of two other 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vectors, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if those are orthonormal, that gives by the Born rule the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probability to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> obtain the "Eigen result” corresponding to the measuring 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparatus with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eigen vectors given by that orthonormal base.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m still not sure about what you would be missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *You would be missing the interference! Do the math. Calculate 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the probability density of a wf expressed as a superposition of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> orthonormal 
>>>>>>>>>>>> eigenstates, where each component state has a different phase 
>>>>>>>>>>>> angle. All 
>>>>>>>>>>>> cross terms cancel out due to orthogonality,*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ?  Sin(alpha) up + cos(alpha) down has sin^2(alpha) probability 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be fin up, and cos^2(alpha) probability to be found down, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>> has 
>>>>>>>>>>>> probability one being found in the Sin(alpha) up + cos(alpha) down 
>>>>>>>>>>>> state, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> which would not be the case with a mixture of sin^2(alpha) 
>>>>>>>>>>>> proportion of up 
>>>>>>>>>>>> with cos^2(alpha) down particles.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Si, I don’t see what we would loss the interference terms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *and the probability density does not depend on the phase 
>>>>>>>>>>>> differences.  What you get seems to be the classical probability 
>>>>>>>>>>>> density. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> AG *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I miss something here. I don’t understand your argument. It 
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to contradict basic QM (the Born rule). 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Suppose we want to calculate the probability density of a 
>>>>>>>>>>> superposition consisting of orthonormal eigenfunctions, *
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Distinct eigenvalue correspond to orthonormal vector, so I tend 
>>>>>>>>>> to always superpose only orthonormal functions, related to those 
>>>>>>>>>> eigenvalue. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *each multiplied by some amplitude and some arbitrary phase 
>>>>>>>>>>> shift. *
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> like  (a up + b down), but of course we need a^2 + b^2 = 1. You 
>>>>>>>>>> need to be sure that you have normalised the superposition to be 
>>>>>>>>>> able to 
>>>>>>>>>> apply the Born rule.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *If we take the norm squared using Born's Rule, don't all the 
>>>>>>>>>>> cross terms zero out due to orthonormality? *
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Born rule tell you that you will find up with probability 
>>>>>>>>>> a^2, and down with probability b^2
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Aren't we just left with the SUM OF NORM SQUARES of each 
>>>>>>>>>>> component of the superposition? YES or NO?*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you measure in the base (a up + b down, a up -b down). In that 
>>>>>>>>>> case you get the probability 1 for the state above.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * If YES, the resultant probability density doesn't depend on any 
>>>>>>>>>>> of the phase angles. AG*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *YES or NO? AG *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, if you measure if the state is a up + b down or a up - b 
>>>>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>>>>> No, if you measure the if the state is just up or down
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *I assume orthNORMAL eigenfunctions. I assume the probability 
>>>>>>>>> densities sum to unity. Then, using Born's rule, I have shown that 
>>>>>>>>> multiplying each component by e^i(theta) where theta is arbitrarily 
>>>>>>>>> different for each component, disappears when the probability density 
>>>>>>>>> is 
>>>>>>>>> calculated, due to orthonormality. *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That seems to violate elementary quantum mechanics. If e^I(theta) 
>>>>>>>>> is different for each components, Born rule have to give different 
>>>>>>>>> probabilities for each components---indeed given by the square of 
>>>>>>>>> e^I(theta).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *The norm squared of e^i(thetai) is unity, except for the cross 
>>>>>>>> terms which is zero due to orthonormality. AG *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *What you've done, if I understand correctly, is measure the 
>>>>>>>>> probability density using different bases, and getting different 
>>>>>>>>> values. *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The value of the relative probabilities do not depend on the 
>>>>>>>>> choice of the base used to describe the wave. Only of the base 
>>>>>>>>> corresponding to what you decide to measure. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *This cannot be correct since the probability density is an 
>>>>>>>>> objective value, and doesn't depend on which basis is chosen. AG*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just do the math. Or read textbook. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Why don't YOU do the math ! It's really simple. Just take the norm 
>>>>>>>> squared of a superposition of component eigenfunctions, each 
>>>>>>>> multiplied by 
>>>>>>>> a probability amplitude, and see what you get !  No need to multiply 
>>>>>>>> each 
>>>>>>>> component by e^i(thetai).  Each amplitude has a phase angle implied. 
>>>>>>>> This 
>>>>>>>> is Born's rule and the result doesn't depend on phase angles, 
>>>>>>>> contracting 
>>>>>>>> what Bruce wrote IIUC. If you would just do the simple calculation you 
>>>>>>>> will 
>>>>>>>> see what I am referring to! AG*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruce is right. Let us do the computation in the simple case where 
>>>>>>>> e^i(theta) = -1. (Theta = Pi)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take the superposition (up - down), conveniently renormalised. If I 
>>>>>>>> multiply the whole wave (up - down) by (-1), that changes really 
>>>>>>>> nothing. 
>>>>>>>> But if I multiply only the second term, I get the orthogonal state up 
>>>>>>>> + 
>>>>>>>> down, which changes everything. (up +down) is orthogonal to (up - 
>>>>>>>> down).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  *Fuck it. You refuse to do the simple math to show me exactly 
>>>>>>> where I have made an error,  IF I have made an error.  You talk a lot 
>>>>>>> about 
>>>>>>> Born's rule but I seriously doubt you know how to use  it for simple 
>>>>>>> superposition. AG *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *If you take the inner product squared (Born's rule) using an 
>>>>>> orthonormal set of eigenfunctions, you get a sum of the form (a_j)^2 + 
>>>>>> (b_j) ^2  where A_j is the complex probability amplitude for the jth 
>>>>>> component, A_j = a_j + i * b_j. The cross terms drop out due to 
>>>>>> orthonormality, and the phase angles are implicitly determined by the 
>>>>>> relative values of a_j and b_j for each j. *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have prepared the state, so that you know that the state of 
>>>>>> your object is given by 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  phi = A_1 up + A_2 down, say, then, if you decide to measure the 
>>>>>> up/down state, and use the device doing that, you do not need to make 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> inner product between phi and phi, but between the base state up and/or 
>>>>>> down to get the probability given by the square of phi * up (to get the 
>>>>>> probability of up) and the square of phi*down, to get the probability of 
>>>>>> down. They will both depend on the value of A_1 and A_2. They are 
>>>>>> respectively (A_1)^2 and (A_2)^2. Of course, we suppose that we have 
>>>>>> renormalised the state so that (A_1)^2 + (A_2)^2 = 1 (which makes them 
>>>>>> into 
>>>>>> probability of getting up and down).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *The question then becomes how do we calculate the probability 
>>>>>> density with the phase angles undetermined.  Are we assuming they are 
>>>>>> known 
>>>>>> given the way the system is prepared? AG*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. The Born rule, written simply, is only that if phi = A_1 up + 
>>>>>> A_2 down, (so the state has been prepared in advance) then if you 
>>>>>> measure 
>>>>>> if the object is in up or down, you will find up with a probability 
>>>>>> given 
>>>>>> respectively by (A_1)^2 and (A_2)^2.
>>>>>> All probabilities are relative to the state of the object and the 
>>>>>> choice of what you decide to measure. It is always simpler to write the 
>>>>>> state in the base corresponding to the measurement, so that the “simple” 
>>>>>> Born rule above can be applied immediately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *For reference I repeat my last comment and add a significant point:*
>>>>>
>>>>>  If you take the inner product squared (Born's rule) using an 
>>>>> orthonormal set of eigenfunctions, you get a sum of the form (a_j)^2 + 
>>>>> (b_j) ^2  where A_j is the complex probability amplitude for the jth 
>>>>> component, A_j = a_j + i * b_j. The cross terms drop out due to 
>>>>> orthonormality, and the phase angles are implicitly determined by the 
>>>>> relative values of a_j and b_j for each j. The question then becomes how 
>>>>> do 
>>>>> we calculate the probability density with the phase angles undetermined.  
>>>>> Are we assuming they are known given the way the system is prepared? AG
>>>>>
>>>>> The question for me is how the phase angles are related to 
>>>>> interference. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is explained by may calculation above. You calculation does 
>>>>> not make sense to me. You compute an inner product of the wave to itself? 
>>>>> I 
>>>>> don’t see the relation with your problem. 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Obviously, you don't know how to apply the rule you speak so highly 
>>>> of, Born's rule. To calculate the probability density of wf function psi, 
>>>> you must calculate <psi, psi>.  Do you dispute this? *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you need to put some projection operator (corresponding to some 
>>>> eigenvalue you intend to measure) in between. 
>>>> <psi,psi> is the amplitude of probability to go from the psi state to 
>>>> the psi state, and should be equal to one (psi being normalised).
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Wrong! Not equal to one. I see you like to talk the talk, but refuse to 
>>> walk the walk. Just read the 4th paragraph of the Wiki link. I correctly 
>>> calculated the probability density for orthonormal eigenstates! AG  *
>>>
>>
>> I understand that if you have a plane wave, say, psi(x,t) = Ae^i(kx-wt), 
>> the probability density if given by the square of the square of the modulus 
>> of A. 
>> I am not sure why you need this, and why this should be problematic with 
>> Bruce’s (or mine) explanation.
>>
>
> *I started with a more general case; namely, writing psi as a 
> superposition of orthonormal states, each with its own implied phase shift 
> incorpororated in different A's,. and found that the resultant probability 
> density didn't depend on any cross terms, which zero out due to the 
> orthogonality. (Actually, I started with an explicitly different phase 
> shift of the form e^i(theta), but later omitted that since the phase shifts 
> can be assumed as different and incorporated in the A's.) I thought 
> interference depended on the result for cross terms, but as Phil pointed 
> out, that's not the case. Why I thought this follows from something Feynman 
> wrote in his lectures. I will explain this in another post. Thanks for your 
> help. AG*
>

*To reiterate and clarify; you got your result by taking the inner product 
of psi with itself, which is what I did, but starting with a more general 
initial state; namely, a superposition of orthonormal states, each 
multiplied by a presumably different probability amplitude A_j. Now, if you 
go back to my earlier comments, you will see the final result; namely, a 
sum of terms of the form || A_j ||^2, where the cross terms drop out due to 
orthonormality. So what's my problem? Simply this; somewhere in Feynman's 
Lectures, he wants to show how quantum probabilities differ from classical 
probabilities. He shows the difference is between taking the classical 
probability for say the EM double slit experiment as ||A||^2 + ||B||^2 
(where one adds the intensity squared for each wave), and the quantum 
calculation, ( ||A + B|| )^2, where one first sums the amplitudes *before* 
taking the resultant norm squared. Why then do I get the first result for 
the quantum probability -- which presumably is the classical result -- when 
the initial quantum psi is taken as a sum of orthonormal states? TIA, AG *

> *How the phase angles relate to interference is another issue, which I 
>>>> think Phil explained. AG*
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The calculation above shows that the cross terms drop out due to 
>>>>> orthonormality. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do it again, explicitly. Take the simple state phi = A_1 up + A_2 
>>>>> down. Up and down are orthonormal,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Up and Dn are NOT orhonormal.  AG*
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>> but phi is not orthonormal with either up or down. If “up” means go to 
>>>>> the left hole, and “down” is go the right hole, the amplitude A_1 and 
>>>>> A_2, 
>>>>> if not null, will interfere, even if only one photon is sent.The wave go 
>>>>> through both silts, and interfere constructively along some direction and 
>>>>> destructively along other direction, making it impossible for that photon 
>>>>> to lend on those last place, like anyway, by the laws of addition of 
>>>>> sinus/wave.
>>>>>
>>>>> But IIUC these are the terms which account for interference. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure what you say here. The interferences comes only from the 
>>>>> fact that we have a superposition of two orthogonal state, and that 
>>>>> superposition is a new state, which is not orthogonal to either up or 
>>>>> down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, applying Born's rule to a superposition of states where the 
>>>>> components are orthonormal, leaves open the question of interference.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That does no make sense. The Born rule just say that if you measure 
>>>>> (up/down) on phi =  A_1 up + A_2 down, you get up with probability 
>>>>> (A_1)^2 
>>>>> and down with probability (A_2)^2. But if you do any measurement, the 
>>>>> state 
>>>>> beg-have like a wave, and the amplitudes add up, constructively or 
>>>>> destructively.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don’t understand that, it means you begin to understand quantum 
>>>>> mechanics, as nobody understand this, except perhaps the Mechanist 
>>>>> Philosophers …(which predicts something at least as weird and 
>>>>> counter-intuitive). 
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce wrote that the phase angles are responsible for interference. I 
>>>>> doubt that result. Am I mistaken? AG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I’m afford you are. The relative phase (in a superposition) 
>>>>> angles are responsible for the interference. A global phase angle changes 
>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *If I am wrong, it's just because I assumed all interference comes from 
>>>> the interactions due to the cross terms -- which cancel out for 
>>>> orthonormal 
>>>> component states. Also, I never introduced a global phase angle in my 
>>>> calculation. If you would do my calculation, or at least understand it, 
>>>> you'd understand Born's rule.  I don't need to read Albert's book to 
>>>> understand Born's rule. AG*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Once you say that up and down are not orthonormal, I am not sure you 
>>>> have studied the QM formalism correctly. Any two distinguishable 
>>>> eigenstates of any observable are orthogonal (and normalised). 
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Right. I was mistaken. AG *
>>>
>>
>>
>> OK. Good.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I have no clue what you don’t understand in my use of the Born rule. 
>>>> You definitely need to study Albert’s book, I think.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Wiki shows I correctly calculated the probability density. Also I agree 
>>> with Phil, and noted the error I made (not in any calculation, but in 
>>> interpretation). Didn't you read it? AG  *
>>>
>>
>> That was not enough clear, sorry.
>> The wiki is also rather unclear on the Born Rule. I mean that there are 
>> clearer exposition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In your other post you mention wikipedia. No problem there? Actually you 
>>>> can see that they do put the projection operator at the right place. You 
>>>> can help yourself with a dictionary, but books and papers are better.
>>>>
>>>
>> *If you put in the projection operator, you're calculating the 
>> probability of getting some eigenvalue, not the probability density of the 
>> position. AG *
>>
>>
>>
>> You lost me. I was just explaining why the relative phase does play a 
>> role for the probability of finding specific values. Bruce was correct, and 
>> I still don’t know if you agree on this or not.
>> I am not sure that I understand what is your problem.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> *You could help yourself by reading plain English. SEE PARAGRAPH 4 OF 
>>> WIKI LINK. THEY CALCULATED THE PROBABILITY DENSITY AND DIDN'T PUT IN THE 
>>> PROJECTION OPERATOR!  AG*
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I really wish you to read the first 60 pages of David Albert’s book. 
>>>>> Its exposition of the functioning of the interferometer is crystal clear. 
>>>>> I 
>>>>> am still not sure if you have a problem with the formalism or with the 
>>>>> weirdness related to it. Read that piece of explanation by Albert, and if 
>>>>> you still have problem, we can discuss it, but it would be too long (here 
>>>>> and now) to do that here. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.<
>>>>>
>>>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Reply via email to