> On 10 Mar 2019, at 13:52, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 7:10:40 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 8 Mar 2019, at 11:16, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 3:18:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 7 Mar 2019, at 12:26, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, March 7, 2019 at 5:11:57 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 6 Mar 2019, at 14:43, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 8:30 AM Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be <>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> > You confirm my theory that strong (non agnostic) atheism is radical 
>>>> > religious fundamentalism
>>>> 
>>>> I've never heard you or anybody else criticize me that brilliantly before, 
>>>> you sure put me in my place. I am devastated!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Lol. 
>>> 
>>> The fact remains. Anyone mocking the science theology, helps the radicals, 
>>> who have separated theology from science to mix it with (fake) politics 
>>> (and real tyranny). You are under the influence of the post 529 
>>> pseudo-christian propaganda. You defend, not intentionally I suppose, those 
>>> who want us remaining non educated. 
>>> The greek theology (not the greek mythology!) is at the origin of 
>>> mathematics, physics, and even mathematical logic more recently.
>>> 
>>> Note that the USSR, which have banned both religion and theology, did the 
>>> same thing with biology. By mixing it with the state, it becomes 
>>> obscurantist and non sensical (which led to a big famine).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> > By theology, you know that  [...]  Plato define God by [...]
>>>> 
>>>> I'm sorry did you say something? I think I fell asleep 
>>> 
>>> Since long …
>>> Since 529, somehow, I guess. 
>>> 
>>> Bruno
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Epicurus (via Lucretius) had a philosophy based on physical and psychical 
>>> atoms.
>> 
>> 
>> Intersting! (And just now you don’t provide links? I would be interested. It 
>> would show that early materialist where not eliminativist). Plotinus already 
>> complained on “eliminative materialism”, in its own term. I find this both 
>> inexact and inhuman.
>> 
>> But that leads to a non necessary dualism, which is also incompatible with 
>> Descartes Mechanism and Turing’s one.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the writings of Epicurus and Democritus and their students should 
>>> have been preserved and the writings of Plato and Aristotle should have 
>>> been destroyed.
>>> 
>>> :)
>> 
>> Lol
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Epicurus: 
>> 
>> Psychical [soul] atoms combine with physical [body] atoms to make conscious 
>> beings.
>> 
>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epicurus/#PsycEthi 
>> <https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epicurus/#PsycEthi>
>> 
>> Having established the physical basis of the world,
> 
> How?
> 
> 
> 
>> Epicurus proceeds to explain the nature of the soul (this, at least, is the 
>> order in which Lucretius sets things out). This too, of course, consists of 
>> atoms: first, there is nothing that is not made up of atoms
> 
> Assuming physicalism and atomism.
> 
> 
> 
>> and void (secondary qualities are simply accidents of the arrangement of 
>> atoms),
> 
> 
> That is the eternal confusion between first person and third person, and it 
> leads, with mechanism, to elimination of the person, or to dualisme, or 
> indeed to panpsychism, which explains absolutely nothing: neither mind nor 
> matter. 
> 
> Matter is an invention of the devil to distract us from the real thing.
> 
> Well, in neoplatonism, you define matter by where God lose control. Of course 
> it is not the christian god. The greeks neoplatonist knew already that it 
> makes not much sense to assume that God is omniscient and/or omnipotent. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> and second, an incorporeal entity could neither act on nor be moved by 
>> bodies,
> 
> 
> That is a good point. But that is the reason to not *assume* matter and 
> movement in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> as the soul is seen to do (e.g., it is conscious of what happens to the 
>> body, and it initiates physical movement).
> 
> That is the shadow of Mechanism, but adding atom of souls make the brain more 
> mysterious, especially that we have not find such atoms. And would they 
> exist, the mind-body problem is only made more complex, if not unsolvable. At 
> least Epicurus is not eliminativist, like most religious person.
> 
> 
> 
>> Epicurus maintains that soul atoms are particularly fine and are distributed 
>> throughout the body (LH 64), and it is by means of them that we have 
>> sensations (aisthêseis) and the experience of pain and pleasure, which 
>> Epicurus calls pathê (a term used by Aristotle and others to signify 
>> emotions instead). Body without soul atoms is unconscious and inert, and 
>> when the atoms of the body are disarranged so that it can no longer support 
>> conscious life, the soul atoms are scattered and no longer retain the 
>> capacity for sensation (LH 65). There is also a part of the human soul that 
>> is concentrated in the chest, and is the seat of the higher intellectual 
>> functions. The distinction is important, because it is in the rational part 
>> that error of judgment enters in. Sensation, like pain and pleasure, is 
>> incorrigible just because it is a function of the non-rational part,
> 
> That is very good. []p&p is obviously incorrigible, and indeed []p is one who 
> can err. Then G* minus G, and the variants, give the surrational part: true 
> but not rationally justifiable. Good insight, in the frame of mechanism, but 
> this illustrates that there is really no need of atom of minds, nor of matter 
> (that’s less obvious, but if you study some papers, it is easy to grasp. The 
> only difficulty consists in understanding what is a computation, and that 
> such notion does no need any physicalist or materialist metaphysical 
> assumption.
> 
> 
> 
>> which does not modify a perception — that is, the reception of lamina 
>> emitted from macroscopic bodies — by the addition of opinion or belief.
> 
> 
> Knowledge is true belief in company of a logos (definition, proof).
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> is an ancient precursor to
>> 
>> Realistic Monism (Why Physicalism Entails Panpsychism)
>> Galen Strawson
>> http://www.sjsu.edu/people/anand.vaidya/courses/c2/s0/Realistic-Monism---Why-Physicalism-Entails-Panpsychism-Galen-Strawson.pdf
>>  
>> <http://www.sjsu.edu/people/anand.vaidya/courses/c2/s0/Realistic-Monism---Why-Physicalism-Entails-Panpsychism-Galen-Strawson.pdf>
> I think this is correct, but that can be seen as a reductio ad absurd of 
> physicalism, I would say.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Physicalist panpsychism (Blackwell Companion to Consciousness)       
>> Galen Strawson
>> https://www.academia.edu/25420435/Physicalist_panpsychism_2017_draft 
>> <https://www.academia.edu/25420435/Physicalist_panpsychism_2017_draft>
>> 
>> 
>> Note: Strawson uses "physicalism" to mean “materialism"
> 
> That is not problem. Physicalism is a slight nuance on “materialism”. It is 
> the same thing if you define matter to be the object of study of physics.
> 
> 
> 
>> since he thinks physics - what counts as its subject matter (pun intended) - 
>> will change in the future.
> 
> Better to not change the name of the field, but to improve the domain. 
> 
> That is the difference *today* between science and religion. In science, when 
> we discover that we were wrong, like discovering that Earth is round and not 
> flat, nobody said that geography is BS, nor that Earth do not exist. We just 
> improve the geography and the conception of Earth. But in religion, if we 
> discover that “omniscience and/or omnipotence makes no sense, people include 
> religion (all of them) is BS, and forbid to change the definition, or to 
> improve the theory. Very often, atheists are even more dogmatic on any change 
> we could bring in theology, like if they wanted theology to be absurd, so 
> that they can continue to believe in Aristotle’s matter. That is the 
> quintessence of obscurantism. The punishment of improvement and dialogs.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
>         "Matter is an invention of the devil to distract us from the real 
> thing."
> 
> Maybe matter is good. It's numbers that are evil. :)

Only 666 :)


> 
> The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first 
> beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the 
> image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and 
> poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their 
> foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which 
> is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. 
> Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is 
> the number of a man. That number is 666. (Revelation 13)

Ah! You see!

More seriously, numbers; like machines, like humans can show the best and the 
worst.

Matter? It is a phenomenological reality. And I don’t think it is bad of good 
per se, although in fine it is the roots of suffering. Torture needs material 
bodies, even in arithmetic. It does not need primitive material bodies, like a 
nightmare can illustrate.


The arithmetical reality contains hellish places, like the computations 
associated to lasting pain. Mater is, from inside, what makes the “lasting” 
possible, of pain, of hope, of pleasure, etc.

In arithmetic, universal machine have partial control. Let us try to avoid 
those places as much as possible.

Bruno 

> 
> - pt 
> 
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