On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> *> Information processing absent actual first-class entities >>>>> of qualia (or experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs >>>>> information >>>>> processing operating in a material substrate where those entities are >>>>> available to be combined and manipulated.* >>>> >>>> >>>> So something can behave intelligently but if it is lacking "f*irst-class >>>> entities of qualia*" it can only be a intelligent zombie. But >>>> "*first-class >>>> qualia*" sounds like consciousness to me, so you're basically saying >>>> only conscious things can be conscious. A tautology has the virtue of >>>> always >>>> being true but it involves a unnecessary non-required pointless >>>> repetition and reiteration of words where you end up at the exact same >>>> place you started with. And that is typical of all consciousness theories. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> To be clearer: Qualia (the "ingredients" of consciousness) cannot be >>> reduced to information processing. >>> >>> >>> That's nothing but unsupported assertion. It's not even clear what >>> "reduced" means in that context. >>> >>> (That is what I mean by "first-class". If qualia could be reduced to >>> information processing, then they would derivative from information, or >>> "second-class".) >>> >>> >>> Is life derivative from chemistry? Only within a certain environment. >>> Same with information processing. In general it's streams of bits being >>> processed being changed according to some algorithm. But it's qualia if >>> the streams are in some entity whose environment and actions give meaning >>> to the information, like "I've got a headache and I'm going to lie down." >>> >>> Brent >>> >> >> >> >> Isn't *qualia can be reduced to information processing* the >> unsupported assertion? >> >> >> No. It's very well supported. Interfere with information processing by >> drugs or electrical stimulus of the brain and qualia are changed or >> eliminated. >> >> Brent >> > > > *Information processing (IP) is necessary for consciousness*, but IP has > to occur in a substrate that produces qualia. *Stop the IP and you stop > consciousness.* But *the same IP* *in a different substrate* could be > consciousnessless. > > The above substate is the material of the brain: neurons, neurochemistry, > glia, ... > > > Mere supposition. It's just the complement of the claim that machines can > never really think. A pathetic hubris. > > > A simulation of gravity running in a smartphone does not produce gravity. > > > It does in the simulated world. > > Brent > > > > > People talk of telepathy and precognition as delusional - broadly > speaking, it is. But the "IP delusion" (that consciousness is > substate-independent IP) is up there. > > @philipthrift > -- > > The *simulation-reality* idea - that a simulated brain is the same as a naturally-evolved/material or synthetic/material brain - is worse even than the* telepathy* idea (which I don't think exists in any significant way anyway).
The first is really much worse than the second, so the first cannot throw stones (even simulated ones). @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/69c5c75e-9ff3-4e4f-a312-7662f0cac957%40googlegroups.com.
