On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:04:58 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 30 Oct 2019, at 21:50, Alan Grayson <[email protected] <javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 5:53:10 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 5:18:45 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/29/2019 3:48 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 1:55:17 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/29/2019 12:46 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 1:25:43 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/29/2019 11:43 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What does that mean? No one even detects them. They need not even be
>>>>>> absorbed, but could simply fly off to infinity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly is the situation? Interference is destroyed, more and
>>>>> more, as they get hotter, but without any observations? AG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brent
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like some sort of hidden variable (don't take this too
>>>> literally), where the particles send out information of whether
>>>> interference will occur or not, and it doesn't matter if it's observed.
>>>> This could fit into my model of superposition with some modification;
>>>> namely, it you do a which-way experiment, OR if information about
>>>> which-way
>>>> is available, interference is destroyed. And what goes through the slits
>>>> in
>>>> the absence of these conditions is a wave going through both slits. AG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK. Except "send out" doesn't make sense. It implies signaling,
>>>> which would be at less than light speed (c.f. delay choice quantum eraser
>>>> experiment).
>>>>
>>>> Brent
>>>>
>>>
>>> What descriptive term do you prefer? Those IR photons travel at the SoL.
>>> The point is that if there's information available for which-way, even if
>>> not observed, the interference is destroyed. AG
>>>
>>>
>>> What does "available" mean? The information that left at the speed of
>>> light is not "available" in any conventional sense at the screen or
>>> detector in the experiment.
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>
>> That's the mystery we have to figure out. What we know, is that the
>> particles release IR photons which could be observed, and when that
>> emission occurs, interference disappears. It doesn't even depend on any
>> observations being made. AG
>>
>
> I would revise my interpretation this way; the electron, or whatever,
> behaves as a wave when no information exists to distinguish which-way, and
> that wave goes through both slits producing interference. When such
> information exists, even if it isn't used or measured, the interference
> ceases to exist. Obviously, there's a huge mystery how the existence of
> such information is sufficient to destroy interference, but that's what the
> experimental results demonstrate. AG
>
>
> That huge mystery disappears when you apply QM to the particles *and* to
> the observers and all things they interact with. The interferences are
> never destroyed,
>
I don't see how this simplifies anything. Sometimes the local observer sees
interference; sometimes not depending on whether which-way information
exists. How does your model explain this? AG
but assuming that the observers are machines and that they obey to QM
explains entirely why they feel like memorising that the interference have
disappeared, and why they are locally right about this.
Either the observer obeys QM, and inherits the superposition of what they
are observing through measurement/entanglement, or QM is false for the
observer, and we have to wait for some theory of what is an observer,
together with some criteria for when and where we can use QM.
Bruno
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