On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:37 AM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 4:53 PM Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >>I have no idea what the difference is between "text-book" realism and >>> "Eisteinian realism" is and I don't think you do either, in physics there >>> is just realism and nonrealism. And you don't give any definition of >>> "Realism" at all, you just say I'm wrong; but Wikipedia agrees with my >>> definition of the word, it says: >>> "*R**ealism is "counterfactual definiteness", the idea that it is >>> possible to meaningfully describe as definite the result of a measurement >>> which, in fact, has not been performed (i.e. the ability to assume the >>> existence of objects, and assign values to their properties, even when they >>> have not been measured)*. >>> >> >> *> Gosh, you must have had to troll through an awful lot of stuff on >> Wikipedia to find that particular definition of realism.* >> > > Mr. Kellett, I am not a troll, if I didn't believe that what I'm saying > has a better than even chance of turning out to be right I would not be > saying it. > > * > I suggest you look for "scientific realism" instead of that >> self-serving nonsense.* >> > > You're talking about two different things that deal with different > subjects. I'm talking about counterfactual definiteness and the subject of > that is nature, it either has counterfactual definiteness or it doesn't and > only experiment can determine which: > > "*In quantum mechanics, counterfactual definiteness (CFD) is the ability > to speak "meaningfully" of the definiteness of the results of measurements > that have not been performed (i.e., the ability to assume the existence of > objects, and properties of objects, even when they have not been measured). > The term "counterfactual definiteness" is used in discussions of physics > calculations, especially those related to the phenomenon called quantum > entanglement and those related to the Bell inequalities*." > The trouble is that this emphasis on counterfactual definiteness is peculiar to a particular approach to Bell's theorem. Bell did not assume counterfactual definiteness, and counterfactual definiteness is a characteristic of classical mechanics -- it has never been assumed as part of quantum theory. In fact, quantum theory explicitly rejects counterfactual definiteness as defined above. Counterfactual definiteness > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_definiteness> > > But the subject of scientific realism is not the nature of the universe > but the nature of human theories: > > *" Scientific realism is a positive epistemic attitude toward the content > of our best theories and models, recommending belief in both observable and > unobservable aspects of the world described by the sciences.*" > Sure, but whether or not the many-worlds theory explicitly embraces the realism of the wave function as a description of the actual content of the universe is what this discussion was about. It is not about classical mechanics, or about counterfactual definiteness. > *Scientific realism > <https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-realism/>* > > > *Insults are often the only possible response to trolling behaviour.* > > > Mr. Kellett, did it ever occur to you that somebody who disagrees with you > might actually believe in what they say just as strongly as you do? > You ignore the content of the best thought on the subject, and consistently misrepresent the meanings of common terms as referring to your own self-serving definitions. By not actually listening to, and responding to, what the other person is saying, you are engaging in trolling behaviour -- no matter what you actually believe. Your responses appear to be designed merely to annoy and provoke strong rejoinders. That is not the way of academic discussion..... Bruce -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAFxXSLQM2dcuELw_7T6A-22CRJpidvhVhmEiW1Tw%3Dya3kwM91A%40mail.gmail.com.
