On 3/1/2022 1:18 PM, John Clark wrote:


On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:13 PM Brent Meeker <meekerbr...@gmail.com> wrote:



    On 3/1/2022 12:58 PM, John Clark wrote:
    Brent Meeker <meekerbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

        />>> Every deterministic theory requires that the universe
        began in one and only one very specific initial condition.
        /


    >> Incorrect, none of the others demand specificity, none of the
    others are picky about initial conditions.

    /> So you're denying that deterministic mechanics are time
    reversible and so could be projected back to specific state?
    /

/
/
//
Brentyou are being disingenuous, I don't believe any disinterested party could read what I wrote and make that conclusion.

Well then our current state does pick out a specific initial state AND so does every other deterministic theory given our state. Right?  You seem to be trying to treat the universe as probabilistic and talk about ensembles of initial states, but there's only one universe.  If it's deterministic (which I very much doubt) it projects onto just one initial condition.  I'm just trying to be clear on what superdeterminism says, and it doesn't say that some demiurge looked at our current state and then contrived the initial state to produce it.

I suppose it could be deterministic but not reversible.

Brent



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

iki


    No other cosmological theory needs the universe to start out in
    one and only one very specific state for the idea to work, nearly
    any state would do. Superdeterminism is unique, no other
    deterministic theory, or theory of any sort,  requires that the
    universe began in one and only one very very very specific
    initial condition, the only one that supports their pet theory.
    If the many world's idea could be ruled out in some other way
    nobody in their right mind would propose an idea as ridiculous as
    superdeterminism. Nobody!

    Nearly all initial conditions would have resulted in a universe
    that looked pretty much like this one, but one hyper-rare one
    won't. There is one chance in an astronomical^2 number (or more)
    it did not, and superdeterministic fans insist that must be the
    very one it did start out in because they're desperate to avoid
    many worlds. Well OK two can play at that game, maybe despite all
    the evidence to the contrary, Fred Hoyle's steady state
    cosmological theory is correct after all but the universe started
    out in the one and only initial condition that would forever
    mislead us into thinking it is not. Or maybe the geocentric
    theory is correct and everything in the universe really does
    rotate around the earth. If the initial conditions were just
    right dinosaur bones could have been formed from non-biological
    geology less than 4000 years ago, so maybe dinosaurs were never
    flesh and blood and never lived more than 66 million years ago.
    If you don't like a theory, any theory not just many worlds, all
    you have to do is just ignore all the evidence that it's true and
    claim that the initial conditions are causing us to be deceived.
    This way lies madness.

    Yes.  I said that it would ruin science to adopt it as a theory.

    Brent
    That which can explain anything, fails to explain at all.


    John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis
    <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
    mda


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