On 16 Jun 2003 20:18:23 -0700 James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 12:45, Pierre Fortin wrote:
> > Anne, 
> > 
> > This is an *ancient* problem...  I pointed it out about 2 years ago
> > IIRC-- when there were all sorts of other mail issues...  it wasn't
> > fixed then and probably won't be fixed now...  the solution is simple
> > -- don't cross post...  send 2 messages...  
> 
> Pierre,
>  I wonder if this "bug" isn't intentional ... by taking the first
> "address" in a cross posted e-mail only, it's a great way to prevent
> cross posts and spam related cross posts. ...
> 
> James

How does that old saying go...?  Something about not attributing foresight
to an unexpected [side-]effect...  If this was intentional, then that
intention missed the mark of reducing traffic by not ignoring the extra
addresses and simply using the first one N times...  

For historical perspective, see below for a discussion on my analysis
(sent Dec 19,2000 -- 2 1/2 years ago...) about the list problems...

Re-reading that old post, I have to wonder if those who don't see their
posts are actually hitting a possible "fix" for "Cause 3a"...  i.e., do
those posts contain the list name 2+ times in the To: field?

I suppose it's true that history repeats...


> > On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:14:54 +0100 Anne Wilson
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Earlier today I sent a post to the newbie list and the expert list, 
> > > saying that we should get started on a hardward compatibility list
> > > on the TWiki site.  Cross-posted, you understand (not a thing I
> > > normally do, but it seemed justified at the time).
> > > 
> > > I received my two copies, which my filters put both into the newbie 
> > > folder - or so I thought.   However, Eric then mailed me about this.
> > >  
> > > You may remember that he has brought up this subject before.  I
> > > think that it was generally thought that he was mistaken (I admit I
> > > thought so too), but when he raised the question I checked the full
> > > headers for the posts.  *Both* of them said 
> > > 
> > > Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 
> > > I had thought it strange that no-one from the expert list had 
> > > answered, but it seems Eric is right - it never got there.
> > > 
> > > An hour or two later, Greg posted to the newbie list that he had 
> > > started the page.  I forwarded his post to the expert list, for 
> > > information.  That was perhaps 5 hours ago.  I has not shown up.
> > > 
> > > We seem to have serious problems here.
> > > 
> > > Anne

[There may be better data from the archives; but this was the first
message I found in mine...]
--------------------- From Dec 19,2000
Rusty,

Since you have the most complete set of questions...  :^)

Rusty Carruth wrote:
>
> Pierre Fortin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I have analyzed just over 250 messages from Cooker and Expert lists. 
> > Of those, there were 20 duplicated and 3 triplicated messages.
>
> I'm impressed!  I quit after 2 or 4  ;-)

I just finally got tired to seeing all the "why am I getting
duplicates...?"
posts; asking the same question over and over does not solve the
problem... you
gotta dig deep[er]...  :>

> > From my short sampling, these are the causes of message replication I
> > came up with...
>
> Did you happen to attach a count to each of these causes?  That might be
> very enlightening.

I didn't feel the count mattered 'cuz a computer can make the same mistake
forever without complaining; fix the cause and it'll behave regardless of
counts...

> > CAUSE 1:  "user 500"@yavin.mandrax.org:
>
> I am of the opinion that user 500 is the 'expert list'
> expander/forwarder/whatever_ you_want_to_call_it.

Yes; just pointing out that it was at the core of the issues.

> > CAUSE 2a:  sender is using M$ Outlook Express configured to send an
> > "Envelope-To:" header. ...
> >
> > CAUSE 2b:  sender is using "Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)" with
> > a"Reply-To:" header.  See cause 2a for solution.
>
> But aren't these just triggers to the problem in user 500?  Unless I've
> missed something, it seems that the right solution is to fix whatever
> user 500 is doing...

Correct; though if we can reduce the problems in the meantime...  However,
the
following ones require a smarter set of rules...

> > CAUSE 3a:  sending to more than one addressee.
> >     Examples:
> >       To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], <self>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >       To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], <self>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> So [EMAIL PROTECTED] == [EMAIL PROTECTED], eh?  Wow, learn
> something new every day ;-)   Does the '<self>' entry seem to have
> anything to do with it?

<self> was just to indicate that the sender was mailing a copy back to
themselves to push a copy of their posts through their filters for filing.

> > CAUSE 3b:  sending to both "To:" and "Cc:"

This is where my post got caught...  though in my case, I sent:
  To: cooker...
  Cc: expert...

Which means that when you think you are cross-posting, the list server
simply
sends both copies to the "To:" list; I missed this variation in my
original
post.

> > CAUSE 3c:  sending with BCC: which is not detectable from the messages
> > we get.
>
> Actually, I have another theory.

[snip]

> Perhaps, in bad weather, the number of errors increases and we start
> getting disconnects AFTER the email has actually been queued on the
> remote machine, but the list sender thinks not.
>
> Just a wild stab in the dark (OUCH!).

This *might* explain those that had no apparent reason for replication...
:?

> Finally - I'd be willing to set up a userid (on my home machine,
[snip]

I'd be surprised if we need to go there...  I've gotten a response from
Denis,
the maintainer of the rules and have already replied to him...  Hopefully
we can
get to the bottom of this RSN (real soon now)...

Pierre

> (yikes, I may have to buy a new hard drive to hold it all!, and I'm sure
> my 44k dialin will get overloaded - oh, well, its all for the cause ;-)
> (and I hope we won't need it for ^TTOO long, also!)
>
> rusty
>
> Rusty Carruth          Email:     [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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