CR wrote-"it's just common sense that a oil dampened shock is safer than a
elastic only shock." I disagree! This assumes that dampening, both
compression and rebound can not be tuned on modern F5s. If you have yet to
discover "How To" dampen suspension travel, spend some time talking with
some front runners in a non confrontational manner. They just may share some
secrets.
Steven Dodd
Red Devil
Texas
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Subject: F500 Digest, Vol 43, Issue 62
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 12:05:12 -0700
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FormulaCar Magazine - A Proud Supporter of Formula 500
The Official Publication of Junior Formula Car Racing
Subscribe Today! www.formulacarmag.com or 519-624-2003
_________________________________
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Pucks? (Chris Reinhardt)
2. Re: Pucks? (Joe Palmer)
3. Realistic attitude on shocks (Chuck Voboril)
From: Chris Reinhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [F500] Pucks?
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:53:00 -0700 (PDT)
Then we get back to buying 100 sets of shocks and cherry picking the
best.
We had a guy that every time there was a big kart race like the Laguna
superkart race, he would buy all Bridgestones up from all the importers.
Well you could still buy Dunlops, but Bridges were good for 1/2 second.
You don't think that a shock can be cut open, reworked and welded back?
What about keeping the shocks fresh? What if you find that brand new
shocks are a 1/10 faster than old ones? Now those $75 shocks are $300 a
weekend.
I agree with what's been said, if you can spec out several brands that
are in the $150 price range, rebuildable, and I'd like to see open valving
and springs, or even a spec valving and springs, it would be a better
alternative than adding rubber to what's already there.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 10/25/2006 5:41:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<< I saw a aluminum bodied shock for the same application that was less
than 2x that price, around $125 or so..>>>
I'm sure you did. What was the laptime difference?
Has anyone who is proposing going to shocks ACTUALLY CAMPAIGNED a
shock-equipped formula car? I have, and the price of shocks is part of why
I came to
F500! I can show you Club Fords in the PacNW where the shocks are worth
more
than the chassis or the engine. The idea that you can control this cost
with
anything other than a sealed, spec shock is just not reasonable within a
club racing format. If it ain't sealed, you can't prove anything about
what's
inside, and that spells $$$. If it's sealed and spec, then it WILL be
optimized for one particular car.
MM
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
From: "Joe Palmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [F500] Pucks?
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:47:12 -0500
Chris,
I've read it . . . I was the one that asked the question of Jay that began
that conversation. I was only responding to your statement that John W.
was "talking about a rubber shock that doesn't exist right now". Point
being it exists no less than an inexpensive coil-damper piece for our cars
and would take no more for the update.
And once again . . . one need not interfere with the other . . . 3" pucks &
coil+dampers are mutually exclusive as far as I'm concerned.
I'm pretty sure we agree on all the below points, but I'm happy to discuss
or even argue about them anyway, if you like.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Reinhardt"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:38 PM
Subject: [F500] Pucks?
Joe, read Jay's response, it's more than stuffing a 3" hunk of rubber into
the canister. At the very least a new "shock" body with a different
plunger would need to be designed and most likley a new bellcrank ratio. I
just don't see that being any cheaper than a $150 or a $200 shock. You
can tune a shock to a lever ratio with different spring rates and
different dampening.
Jay has said that he has data on the subject, I would ask him to supply
that for the CRB, and it's just common sense that a oil dampened shock is
safer than a elastic only shock. The only issue would cost. Lets put a
list of these cheaper shocks together decide if they will indeed work for
our purposes. I think we can limit the spending by stating that shocks
have to be readily availible for $XXX or less, or making the shocks part
of a claiming for $XXX. The last thing you want is to have to police
shocks and have the SCCA dyno each one. Keep it simple..
CR
Chris,
I was told that the BOD "may have made a mistake", by a BOD member.
There
was a procedural breakdown and they did not have all the facts before
making
there decision. They're reviewing it now.
That being said, the 3" pucks is a completely separate issue from the
"cheap
shocks" . . . there is no reason we can't introduce that request to the
CRB/BOD whenever the class is ready. The CRB/BOD evaluates each
proposal on
its own merits, regardless of any decision made prior.
What shocks are you running on your FS car? Are they candidates for
F5,
meaning "cheap"? Your test data, costs, design, and experience/results
will
be the best data for the class on this subject.
On a separate note regarding the non-existing 3" pucks . . . you can
simply
stack three 1" pucks and greatly improve the linearity for our
application.
However, several folks in our class have been making their own pucks
now for
years and have agreed to produce solid 3 inchers at cost for anybody
that
wants them. Everyone would agree its not as good as "real" shocks, but
it
is certainly better than 1" rubber.
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
From: "Chuck Voboril" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [F500] Realistic attitude on shocks
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:52:39 -0700
Sure, people can outspend you-that can happen no matter what the rules are.
Pucks or shocks.
Even if the parts are free-
100's of hours can be spent in testing them to get it right.
However, that said, I'd be willing in ANY class to take my chances with
competing with those who go to those excessive lengths.
I just don't believe it can make much difference once you get past a
certain point.
Just to have decent control of my own car instead of being slammed around
like a rag doll is good enough for me.
Don't care if someone else spent $6,000 for a set of shocks instead of
$600.
It just doesnt matter.
Just limit the shocks to steel bodies like those Alco Dwarf car shocks.
Easy to check with a magnet.
one or 2 external adjustments max and no external reservoirs.
Any spring-but no hydraulic Hyperco platforms or thrust washers.
That saves some more money-about $1200 in the case
of 4 hyperco seats and there is absolutely no way to hide them.
Chuck
From: "Chris Eckles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [F500] Joe, it is time to start a new poll
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 15:15:37 -0400
Well, now, I have no doubt that nearly all of us would like to drive
around
on "decent" shocks AND SPRINGS than on various increasingly complicated
forms of rubber dampers. But which shocks shall we choose? Road racing,
smooth? Road racing rough? Autocrossing smooth, rough, wet, dry? And
some
shocks will better suit certain chassis, and certain driving styles. . .
So
this isn't a "one size fits all" proposition. Or is it?
A free shock/spring rule would instantly escalate into multi-thousand
dollar
shocks (even with a claim rule, I will say). But then so is the initial
cost of three inch pucks, IMHO.
Certainly, all trophy winners' shocks would have to be tested on a shock
dyno. And springs. . . I know how quickly clutch springs change force -
what about suspension springs? Shocks can easily be re-valved, pressure
changed, fluid changed, and modified back to look precisely stock. A
claim
rule would be absolutely impractical for both road racers and
autocrossers.
"Adequate" shocks would be about the same cost for me as 3 inch pucks, and
give a better drive, so I'm rather open. Easier to install on my car,
too,
I think. Bellcrank changes would not be a very good way of varying the
shocks (varying motion ratio does not really change dampening
characteristics much, I would think).
As others have said, this will not happen now (for the 2008 season), and I
think not in the next few years, regardless of whether we ALL agree to do
it. Our class is being "held back", for relatively justifiable reasons,
like it or not.
And John just gave me ideas for another three options of puck dampers, so
another grand or so there (internals). . .
Chris Eckles
Atlanta
>> Joe,
I have been reading with great interest all the postings about 3" pucks
and
spec coil over shocks for our class. The BOD's decision to turn down the
3" puck may have been a blessing in disguise. Earlier I was in favor of
3"
pucks but as I have learned more about the need for dampening as the main
method of reducing the shock to the chassis I am now in favor of ONE cost
controlled, spec'ed, sealed coil over shock that has a supplier's
"promise"
not to discontinue it in the near future. The spec's should be compiled.
A
thorough search of the market must be done to ensure that all possible
candidates have been uncovered and properly considered. A track test of
the
top three or four candidates should then be done to provide a comparative
analysis. Once the choice is made and approved by SCCA we can then
publisize the dickens out of this improvement in hopes of attracting more
drivers.
When can we start to poll the drivers?
Jim <<
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