--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: snip > > You see, now this is the problem. Oh yeah, Krishna > was hopping > around yelling in pain because I guess his body was > doing the body > thing but at another level there was no suffering > because...well > because there was no "him" to experience the pain. > I'm sorry, but > I'm not buying this line, it seems quite useless.
Yes, it is quite useless because an experience from a state of Self-realization is trying to be understood from waking state. It just causes confusion because in waking state there is a confound between "I" and pure consciousness. "I" comes about because consciousness projects into/identifies with the subjective vehicle called mind. Out of this a separate identity called "I" is created and thought to be consciousness. This is a description only, not a prescription to "follow". > It's similar to > when people say "you are already enlightened but you > just don't know > it". Agreed. Not necessarily very useful information. Although it is true from the perspective of Self-Realization. Again a description not a prescription. > > In your example, why couldn't Krishna not have > experienced any pain > because it was the body that was shot and not > Krishna. "Krishna," that to which that word marks did not experience or not not experience pain.Let me ask you a question. If in a dream "you" are shot, are "you" shot in waking state? No. So what happens when "you" no longer exist? "You" can not be shot or not not shot. > This idea > that nothing changes on the physical plane, there is > only a shift in > awareness and life just goes on as it did before, > removes any reason > for the existence of the body. Oh, a lot changes with Self-Realization, but life does go on just as before. As to why there is a creation, you've got me! Creation is just a thought without a thinker. There actually isn't a creation, but that is useless knowledge when a creation is experienced. > Oh it's just the > unmanifest getting > bored and then creating bodies that re exist over and > over again > causing the umanifest to experience all kinds of > hells because of > the play of the mind and the belief in an individual > self. Then one > day there is a realization that there is no "self" > and la di da > everything continues as before, the body keeps > hopping around in > pain but whatever it was that thought it was the > body is now no > longer around, so there is pain but no pain. Get it? This can not be intellectually understood from waking state. It sounds like, and rightfully so, a bunch of nonsense. Non-dual teachings are useful in waking state if they trigger a discrimination that awakens consciousness to itself. Otherwise they are ridiculous descriptions that have no function in waking state and only confuse people and create "advaitic mood making." e.g., ""I'm already enlightened." What a pile of crap. > No of course > you don't get it because any attempt to understand > it is just the > monkey mind doing what it always does. What a crock. No, not a crock at all. Existence is well beyond conceptual systems, especially waking state conceptual systems with implicit assumptions that create all sorts of problems until they are experientially removed, as it were, with Self-Realization. > > This is an intelligent universe born out of > intelligence itself and > the shocking experience of a "no self" state does > not render the > sequential rhyme and reason of intelligence creating > itself null and > void. That's an assumption you're making. How do you get there? > There is a reason for a re-existing body that > has a personal > karmic record that exists in time and a "no self" > experience does > not make those connections disappear and your "self" > still exists to > the degree that the Karmic record still exists. A > body hopping > around in pain is a picture of the Self still > entangled in the self. No, not at all. This is a waking state conclusion and makes good sense from waking state because of the "I"/pure consciousness confound. What "you" are has nothing to do with any limitation at all. > > Milk and cookies my ass. I have found that some milk and cookies help soothe the pitta mind. A state of mind I'm quite familiar with. Trying to reconcile these irreconcilable concepts agitates the mind to no end. I recommend whole milk with those new mint Oreo cookies. Quite tasty! -Peter > > Rick Carlstrom > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
