Rick wrote:
Gurus are just people who are farther up the mountain, or perhaps sitting on
its summit.
Bronte writes:
If this is all they were, darlin', they wouldn't be intent on wearing crowns,
having us prostrate ourselves at their feet, call on them to marry us, give our
children their first taste of food, and carry dolls around that represent them.
They wouldn't sell their clothing to their disciples and creating a focus from
the aspirant on themselves, the guru, as God. Their focus would be on the God
within the student. But that is not what we see. I have never observed a guru
bow at the feet of a student or worship an article of a disciple's clothing. Of
course gurus give lip service to the student's being God, but their actions
speak profoundly otherwise. No wonder students get lost in their masters.
Rick wrote:
To my understanding, you dont unite with gods by using a bija mantra. You
transcend the mantra and realize the ground state of all existence, including
the gods existence.
Bronte writes:
Come on now, let's get real. When I have a mantra that consists of the name
of a Hindu god followed by "namah" -- Sanskrit for "I bow down" -- my
meditation is worship of a god. I feed them with my energy. "The gods eat the
soma of the sacrifice," says Rig Veda. This is what it's talking about.
In mantra meditation, you are fodder for a god. Sure you feel good
afterwards. If they didn't give you endorphins in exchange for your giving them
your freedom and individuality, you wouldn't sit there and meditate, would you?
Your description of "realizing the ground state of existence, including the
gods' existence" as what happens in meditation is the lie they tell you to veil
the truth. So you will keep on worshipping, of course. What do you expect, that
the gods will come right and say they're turning you into dinner?
At the start of this thread, you quoted Ramana Maharishi on the value of
letting "His name," the name of a god, not only permeate your meditation but
every moment of your life, every impulse of your thought, the very fabric of
consciousness. This is outright possession. This is a taking over of your
individual consciousness by another entity, by the god whose name you repeated.
This is not experience of Brahman, however they may dress it to be so.
True Brahman does not require the sacrifice of your individuality, your free
will, your desires and original thinking. Possession DOES require such things.
The gods have craftily lured you into mantra meditation, and wonderful guy
though you are (and pretty darn cosmic to boot, IMO), I believe you are in
danger of being devoured as an individual on account of the path you insist on
following. Somehow it seems you don't think you can go it by yourself. You need
a god and guru to lead the way. You probably think that because of the level of
possession they already have imposed on you, the feeling that you NEED them to
make it to your goal.
If you say you don't need it, you simply find it useful, I challenge you to
give up mantra meditation, chanting sessions and all other devotional
activities for two weeks. I'll bet you can't do it without tremendous effort.
Your ability to take it or leave it would prove or disprove my theory that you
are already part-possessed.
You say your realized friends are dynamic and independent thinkers who still
respect their former teachers. Maybe some are, but I'll bet not those who
namahed their way to where they're at. My dear friends who follow devotional
paths have trouble making decisions, trouble taking control of situations. They
take the attitude that life will happen to them according to God's will, and
have difficulty taking action toward a desire or goal. They tell me they feel
stuck in the routine of their lives much of the time. Their tendency is to wait
for God to do things for them, so life happens to them rather than life being
something they dynamically create. They tend to accept what they're told as
true, rather than examine the root issues at the base of their assumptions.
This is very different from the enlightened people I know who don't follow
devotional paths or gurus in general.
Rick wrote:
The realized people I know dont see themselves as having united with a god.
They see all life from ants to gods as being particles or facets of their
infinite nature.
Bronte writes:
I find that scary. They merged their very mind, their entire consciousness
with "His name," and they don't see they have merged with the god? They spout
opinions that they as individuals do not exist, that they are will-empty
body/mind vessels, meat-robots, predetermined reflectors of some nonlocalized
will, and they don't see that they are possessed? The walking dead! But I guess
it is to be expected. The possessed never see themselves that way.
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