--- mathatbrahman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ---Interesting theory, but the facts yell out re: > MMY ...he has "I, > I, I...written all over him. Still, he's > Enlightened. (at least many > believe. I believe he is). Of course MMY is enlightened. You see "I" written all over him. That is an attribute of "your" perception. > Take Adi Da (aka Franklin Jones). Haven't met him > personally but > have read all of his books, talked with his > disciples, seen videos of > him. No doubt, he's Enlightened. But WHAT an > EGO.!!! Love the guy's books. Again that is "your" perception. I don't know if he has an ego or not. I certainly do understand why you say this though. > Nope, saying > that Enlightned people are "different" They are diffent > and they have > their own rules "own rules"? What do you mean by that? > definitely contradicts some very bizarre behavior on > their part, in > some cases including immoral and even criminal > behavior. The enlightened are certainly capable of what is called, from a waking state perspective, "immoral and criminal behavior". > Standards > have to apply to everyone. Of course. We function in a complex social system. I assume here that what you mean by standards are social standards. > Saying there's nobody > "there" doesn't > hold water, since the body is there and "it" is > doing the behavior. The experiential reality of enlightenment is that there is no subjective "I" doing or not doing anything. The body is involved with action. > The question of Enlightenment only applies to > identification, not the > role of the body acting in the world. Agreed > As long as > there's a body, > desires must be present. You're understanding action of the body as always arising from desire. Desire is a "subjective" phenomenon that arises in waking state because of the intrinsic experience of lack because consciousness appears to be bound as an "I". Would you call the growth of a tree a "desire"? The tree desires to stretch out its leaves to the sunlight? I doubt it. This just occurs. It is the play of the three gunas/nature/God/mystery. Human behavior/thought/feeling also just occurs like a tree reacting to sunlight. It is that in waking state there is a false notion of an "I" that is created and thought to be the author of these things. > Relinquishing the notion of > a mental "doer": > (i.e. realizing the true nature of the Self and > seeing the nature of > Mind); doesn't change the fact that relative bodies > are performing > actions, exhibit desires, have programs, agendas; Agreed. > even selfish > desires which do harm to people. Of course. Just like a hurricaine can kill the body. > I suppose you would > say that it's > impossible for an Enlightened person to harm another > person? No, I wouldn't say that. But what do you mean by "harm" though? Damage to the body? Of course an enlightened person can harm or kill the body of another. (or, > are you one of those who maintain Enlightened people > are incapable of > making mistakes? It would be a mistake to believe > that notion. > Don't fall for it. Don't worry, I won't fall for that notion! But what is a "mistake" though? The term, "A mistake free life" is just a buzz term the TMO uses. > > In [email protected], Peter Sutphen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > An unenlightened person looks at an enlightened > person > > and they appear to have desires. They talk, they > move, > > they eat food, they do this and that, they prefer > one > > thing over another. In fact from the behavioral > level > > there is no difference between the unenlightened > and > > the enlightened. But the enlightened person is not > > "there" in the way the unenlightened person > believes > > themselves to be. There is no sense of "I" or > "mine" > > in the enlightened person. There is no subjective > > "self" that sees itself as "me" or "I" . That just > > goes in enlightenment. The best an enlightened > person > > can say is that they are "nothing." They aren't > there > > in they way an unenlightened person believes they > are > > there. There is no personal identity or self in > > enlightenment. The mind can't understand this > because > > it confounds a sense of individual self with > > consciousness. The two have no relationship what > so > > ever. A personal self is a product of > consciousness > > projecting into mind and experiencing itself as > bound. > > > > > > --- matrixmonitor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I don't see how Enlightenment is in any way > > > connected with not having > > > desires, from a theoretical level (MMY never > said > > > that); or > > > experiential level...looking at various people > whom > > > I consider to be > > > Enlightened; for example. > > > 1. Various Buddhist teachers, and texts have > people > > > repeating the > > > Bodhisattva vow, which entails Enlightened > people > > > using some type of > > > subtle body to be used for the purpose of > assisting > > > others. For > > > example, p. 118 of "The Seven Chapter Prayer of > the > > > Great Teacher > > > Padmasambhava", p. 118, states part of the vow: > > > "I vow that having attained the level of > > > Buddhahood, I shall bring > > > all beings to full Enlightenment, using whatever > > > means are necessary > > > for whomsoever is to be tamed". > > > Therefore, this is definitely an avowed desire, > > > requiring a body in > > > the context of useful and skillful means toward > an > > > end. > > > 2. The Dalai Lama definitely has desires: > foremost > > > on his is list is > > > his stated desire to help the Tibetan people. > > > 3. Terton Kansang Dechen Lingpa Rincoche, an > > > Enlightened teacher from > > > Tibet, has the desire to assist the monks and > nuns > > > of the > > > Zangdokpalri monastery in Northeastern India. A > > > pamphlet from his > > > org states, "According to his visions of > > > Padmasambava, Kunzang Dechen > > > Rinpoche has established a nunnery and monastery > in > > > Arunachal > > > Pradesh, one of the poorest though most > beautiful > > > areas in the > > > world. The brochure is inviting people to > donate > > > money. This is > > > definitely a worthy desire, don't you think? > > > 4. Enlightened Kriya yoga Guru Sri > Satyeswarananda > > > Giri has desires. > > > See: > > > http://www.sanskritclassics.com/aboutbaba.html > > > In 1982 after he initiated me into Kriya yoga, I > > > asked him what his > > > purpose was in coming to the U.S. He said it > was to > > > teach the "true" > > > version of Kriya Yoga (he maintained that > Yogananda > > > was teaching it > > > improperly); to set the record straight on the > > > history of Kriya Yoga, > > > and to teach the technique to worthy seekers. > Those > > > are all desires. > > > 5. Enlightened teacher Kalu Rinpoche said, > (through > > > an interpreter) > > > that he urged people to chant Om Mani Padme Hum. > > > > That's a desire. > > > 6. Ramakrishna stated that he intended to > incarnate > > > again 200 years > > > after his last incarnation. That's definitely a > > > desire. > > > 7. The next one...you may not agree that Jerry > > > Jarvis is enlightened > > > but I believe he is. He definitely has numerous > > > desires. I worked > > > with him at SIMS for several years, 1970 through > > > 1973. For example, > > > on one occasion I found a huge box of photos of > > > people in some of the > > > early courses...Idlewild, etc. I told Jerry > about > > > the box and he > > > requested me to clean up the basement. That was > a > > > desire on his part. > > > 8. Also, I believe Walter Koch was Enlightened. > Once > > > I was having a > > > conversation with him and asked about the > content of > > > thought. He > > > said "give up negative thinking". It was his > desire > > > to tell me that. > > > 9. Take Ramana Maharshi. His brother was the > > > "Shakti" to his "Shiva" > > > role. Ramana asked his brother to be the > manager of > > > the ashram, who > > > then carried out the work by doing it himself or > > > dishing the work out > > > to subordinates. It was Ramana's desire to have > his > > > Brother play > > > that role. > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
