--- In [email protected], t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In [email protected], t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > "This verse [II:55]
this verse, by itself, in contrast to verses that following ... > does not record any outer sign of the man whose intellect is steady and who is established in the Self, because there cannot be any outer sign to show that a man is absorbed deep within himself. The inner state of such a man cannot be judged by outer signs. It cannot be said that he sits like this or like that or closes his eyes in any particular manner. "outer signs" is defined by example as a class of criteria that are simple, even superficial, quite overt, external things. It is not obvious that M is extending his prohibition to signs not in this overt, superficial class. > No such external signs can serve as criteria of this state....The Lord does not enter into any such description. The signs recounted here [in II-5, not the rest of the chapter] are only subjective. They concern the inner condition of the mind...." The Lord does not enter into any such description here [II-55], but he clearly does in the following verses [II-56-60] and in other parts of the gita, noteably 16:1-3. Such descriptions of the qualities of a "person of steady prajna" may not be overt signs, that is "outer signs" as classified and defined by example above, but there are still abundant descriptions presented. For example: ***************************************** A person whose mind is unperturbed by sorrow, who does not crave pleasures, and who is free from attachment, fear, and anger; such a person is called a sage of steady Prajna. (2.56) Those who are not attached to anything, who are neither elated by getting desired results nor troubled by undesired results, their Prajna is deemed steady. (2.57) When one can completely withdraw (or restrain) the senses from the sense objects as a tortoise withdraws its limbs (into the shell), then the Prajna of such a person is considered steady. (2.58) The desire for sensual pleasures fades away if one abstains from sense enjoyment, but the craving (for sense enjoyment) remains. The craving also disappears from the one who has seen (or known) the Supreme. (2.59) Restless senses, O Arjuna, forcibly carry away the mind of even a wise person striving for perfection. (2.60) For continuity, here are the verses leading up to the above: Arjuna said: O Krishna, what is the mark of a person whose Prajna is steady and merged in superconscious state? How does a person of steady Prajna speak? How does such a person sit and walk? (2.54) (Prajna means consciousness, mind, intellect, judgment, discrimination, and wisdom.) The Supreme Lord said: When one is completely free from all desires of the mind and is satisfied in the Self by the (joy of) Self, then one is called a person of steady Prajna, O Arjuna. (2.55) **************************************************** II-55 comentary focuses on "outer signs". The above verses, II:56-60, are a new and different category:"signs of absence". These are an opposite category of "outward signs" discussed in M commentary for II-55. These signs of absence are a LACK of: craving, sorrow, attachment, fear, and anger, elation, troublesome demeanor, wandering senses, desire for sensual pleasures, etc. These signs of absence may be either overt or not apparent. For example, anger (explosive karhoda ) can be felt internally and controlled, not visable to others, or it can manifest and explod in clearly visuable rage. These signs of absence may not be a sufficient sign for a person of steady prajna, but they appear to be a necessary sign. They appear to provide a disqualification criteria for a "person of steady prajna". That is, for a person who never experiences (inward) or expresses (outward) anger, this absence is not a sufficient sign to proclaim "steady prajna. However, the experience (inward) or expressed (outward) anger of anyone may be a sufficient criteria for indicating that they are NOT of steady prajna. >... But what are outer signs? 16:1-3 goes into this in some detail. ************************************************* The Supreme Lord said: Fearlessness, purity of heart, perseverance in the yoga of knowledge, charity, sense restraint, sacrifice, study of the scriptures, austerity, honesty; (16.01) Nonviolence, truthfulness, absence of anger, renunciation, equanimity, abstaining from malicious talk, compassion for all creatures, freedom from greed, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; (16.02) Splendor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, absence of malice, and absence of pride; these are the qualities of those endowed with divine virtues, O Arjuna. (16.03) ************************************************** Some of these are repetitions of the "signs of absence" - fear, anger etc. Others are explicit signs of "one of divine nature" (which I hold is to be in a similar similar class as a "person of steady prajna"): purity of heart, perseverance, charity, sacrifice, study of the scriptures, austerity, honesty, truthfulness, equanimity, compassion for all creatures, gentleness, modesty, splendor, forgiveness, fortitude and cleanliness. (Sounds a bit like the Boy Scout Code: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, freindly courtesous, kind ...) These qualities may not be sufficient to define one of divine nature, but they appear to be required. That is if these qualities are lacking in a person, they have not yet fully cultivated a divine nature. > > > > And then *after* that first statement go on > > > > to give a whole list of psychological and moralic features? My > > > > impression is that the Gita gives first the highest Truth, > > > > that > > > > there is no way enlightenment can be limited/defined etc. That may be your impression, but the actual verses do not appear to support such an impression, IMO. > > > >And then gives lower truth about the type of behaviour that is > > > > more conducive for the aspirant to gain this state. .... > > > But then one of > > MMY's hobbyhorses is that scriptures have been > > interpreted as PREscriptive of behavior conducive > > to enlightenment when they're actually DEscriptive > > of one who *is* enlightened--i.e., cause and > > effect got reversed once knowledge of effortless > > transcending had been lost. I agree that in the context of the verses, these qualities are descriptive, not prescriptive. However, given the yamas and niyamas, which are prescriptive and are similar to the above qualities, I don't beleive that it is hurtful to aspire to these positive qualities, and to tend away from the negative qualites -- if one is so inspired to do so. > ....The point is, you cannot see it > from the outside, from the behaviour. The subjective only the > enlightened knows himself. While it is primarily subjective, the verses do seem to point to necessary qualities for "qualification" of steady prajna / divine qualities, both positive "attained" qualities, and negative "shun" qualities. All of these may be necessary, but not sufficient to define a person of steady prajna / divine qualities. Following is another way to look at it. Ask, can a person be of steady prajna / divine qualities if they are: craving, sorrowful, attachmented, fearful, angery, of troublesome demeanor, hs wandering senses, strong desires for sensual pleasures, impure heart, non-persevering, uncharitable, unable to sacrifice, do not study the scriptures, unable to be austere, dishonesty, lacking in equanimity, rough / not gentle, immodesty, unforgiveness, weak and unclean? Perhaps. But there is not a uniform distribution of persons of steady prajna / divine qualities in each group -- which would be the case if these qualiteis had no 'predictive power" that is, if the model was worthless. For example, given 1000 people with these qualities, and 1000 people of the opposite qualites, I venture that the negative group will have no or few persons of steady prajna / divine qualities and the positive group will have many. Another aspect of signs of spiritual unfoldment / steady prajna / divine qualities, are the eeg, PET scans and related scientific work to define "enlightenment" markers. Are these not signs? To hold that there are absolutely "no outer signs" of spiritual unfoldment, that is, it is purely subjective, would be to hold that any scientific markers are invalid and the pursuit of such is folly. I don't think M holds this, thus he must hold that some "outer signs" are valid. A broader point is the folly of enlightenment labels and categorizations. Claiming or bestowing Enlightenment labels creates an abstract pedestal. The pedestal, often nebulously defined, or claimed "undefinable", becomes a bizzare abstraction which people bow to, and ponder endlessly questions such as "do the enlightened display outwards signs or not". To me that is a perversion. Given the choice of spending time with someone who is "enlightened" (no attributes other than that) vs. a person who "never becomes angry" or "exhibits deep and meaningful compassion to all he encouters" or "who is totally non-violent", or "never has a negative, hateful, thought or word" or "has lost all sense of ego, myness, ownership, and control" -- there is no contest: I would chose all of the persons of positive attributes over someone placed on the abstract pedestal of non-defined, attributeless in behavior, "enlightnement". Why asprire to enlightenment? Even 'as if" an "individual" could ever become enlightened. Even if "seeking" is counter productive to the goal. It is far more attractive to me to cultivate a state of "steady prajna" or a permanent state of non-anger, etc, than some abstraction called enlightenment. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! 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