--- In [email protected], Arhata Osho <arhatafreespe...@...> wrote: > > Checks in the envelope . . where to mail it! T
To me of course, I'll make sure he gets it! I'll cash it in my bank and write a check on my own account, then drop the check into the Ganges to follow his ashes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Arhata Osho > <arhatafreespeech@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of > > meditations> available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga > > people), and they have 0 interest! > > > > But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must > convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and > lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get > them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel > badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless > I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, "authfriend" <jstein@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, > > > > > > > > I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- > > > > > > > > thesis* of self discovery. Still do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Total agreement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I could follow up: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a > > > > > > > means of self-discovery? > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that many in the TM movement have > > > > > > turned basic TM into a religion, one that has > > > > > > something but not everything to do with its > > > > > > origins *as* a religious technique. I believe > > > > > > that the environment of the *TMO* is very > > > > > > definitely religious in nature currently, and > > > > > > is actively seeking to hide that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because it seems that for > > > > > > > a few years, at least, you were having the > > > > > > > experience of self-discovery as a result of the > > > > > > > practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was pursuing my own self discovery while > > > > > > practicing the TM technique. I am not con- > > > > > > vinced that all of the "discovery" happened > > > > > > "as a result" of that practice. In fact, I > > > > > > think that a lot of it just happened, similar > > > > > > to the way that shit just happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > *At the time*, I would have "credited" TM > > > > > > for those experiences; now I would not and > > > > > > do not. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to be as precise as I possibly > > > > > > can here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What if you had learned TM and continued to > > > > > > > meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any > > > > > > > further with the techniques or teachings? Would you > > > > > > > ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice > > > > > > > because you felt it was religious? > > > > > > > > > > > > If I had never become a TM teacher, I am > > > > > > fairly confident that I would have given > > > > > > up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. > > > > > > One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher > > > > > > Training was to either "jumpstart" the tech- > > > > > > nique such that I began perceived sufficient > > > > > > benefits from TM to continue practicing it, > > > > > > or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, > > > > > > for a number of years, but then when I no > > > > > > longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. > > > > > > > > > > > > I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was > > > > > > religious. I stopped primarly because as > > > > > > far as I could tell it was doing nothing > > > > > > to further my self discovery. > > > > > > > > > > > > Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher > > > > > > I was being asked to lie and do other things > > > > > > on a regular basis that I found to be con- > > > > > > trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my > > > > > > values. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was > > > > > > clearly going in a direction I did not want > > > > > > to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, > > > > > > and away from openness and transparency. The > > > > > > question of whether that "direction" was in > > > > > > the direction of becoming more of a religion > > > > > > would not and did not occur to me. It was > > > > > > just no longer an organization I wanted to > > > > > > be associated with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the > > > > > > > translation of the puja years later and been told > > > > > > > the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would > > > > > > > that have soured you on the practice? > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Not me personally. It would have soured > > > > > > some friends who *started* from a fairly > > > > > > religious background; I did not. At the time, > > > > > > all I would have cared about was that it > > > > > > seemed to work. > > > > > > > > > > > > I now see that "seeming to work" period as > > > > > > more of a *contrast* between my life up till > > > > > > then, practicing no form of meditation reg- > > > > > > ularly, and then practicing *some* form of > > > > > > meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt > > > > > > some benefits at the start. When I stopped > > > > > > feeling those benefits, I moved on and found > > > > > > other techniques from which the sense of them > > > > > > "working" and providing continuing benefits > > > > > > did not "fade" and has not faded in any of > > > > > > the years since. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it have > > > > > > > become less about self-discovery for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > No. It would have been irrelevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, > > > > > > the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer > > > > > > with me at Humboldt. If the origin and the > > > > > > nature of the mantras had not been hidden from > > > > > > him, he would never have begun TM. Some months > > > > > > later, he *did* learn about those origins, > > > > > > and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also > > > > > > felt betrayed and lied to. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied > > > > > > to, by people like yourself who were trying to > > > > > > "protect" him from knowledge he "didn't need" > > > > > > to know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say, "The vast majority of religions -- modern > > > > > > > and ancient -- strove to *prevent* that kind of inner > > > > > > > exploration rather than facilitate it." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be fair to say Hinduism is one of the > > > > > > > minority of religions that still strives to facilitate > > > > > > > inner exploration? > > > > > > > > > > > > Absolutely not, not in my opinion. Mainstream > > > > > > Hinduism *in India* probably attempts to limit > > > > > > and prevent the mystical experience as much as > > > > > > the Catholic Church does, and stresses faith > > > > > > more than anything else. But many of the "off- > > > > > > spring" of Indian Hinduism, transplanted to > > > > > > the West, found that Westerners were more > > > > > > interested in inner exploration than they were > > > > > > in faith, and so it became more of the focus > > > > > > of their teachings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Westerners had -- in the 50s and 60s -- Had It > > > > > > Up To Here with faith. They didn't WANT any > > > > > > organization or teaching that required them to > > > > > > have faith. They wanted EXPERIENCE. That, IMO, > > > > > > was one of the reasons for the psychedelic > > > > > > revolution in the 60s. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yoga, transplanted to the West, and meditation, > > > > > > transplanted to the West by Yogananda and MMY > > > > > > others, appealed to that desire for experience. > > > > > > Maharishi, in my opinion, provided a "baby > > > > > > steps" technique of meditation that could > > > > > > provide a little of that experience, hoping > > > > > > that Westerners would *settle* for a little, > > > > > > and for "baby steps." > > > > > > > > > > > > They did not. When (from my perspective, having > > > > > > been there at the time, whereas you were not) > > > > > > large numbers of TMers and TM Teachers began > > > > > > to *leave* the TM movement, feeling that they > > > > > > had "plateaued out" on the baby steps technique > > > > > > of TM, Maharishi introduced the siddhis, to try > > > > > > to keep them around. That worked on some. It > > > > > > did not work on me. I took the course and con- > > > > > > sidered it Just Another Baby Step. I was looking > > > > > > for something more, and left in search of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Others found *enough* in TM and the siddhis to > > > > > > stick around. Or to stick around longer than I > > > > > > did. Some are happy with what they learned from > > > > > > Maharishi to this day. I am happy for them if > > > > > > they feel that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Me, I needed more, and went in search of it, > > > > > > and from my point of view found it. The issue > > > > > > of whether TM and the TMO constituted a religion > > > > > > were NEVER a part of my decision to "go forth" > > > > > > in search of something more. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, for the former priest who shared my > > > > > > trailer at that Humboldt course, NO AMOUNT > > > > > > of "payoff" from TM would have enticed him to > > > > > > stick around once he found out the origin of > > > > > > the mantras and the translation of the puja. > > > > > > He would not have trusted Maharishi or any > > > > > > of the members of the TM movement if they > > > > > > told him the time of day, much less that they > > > > > > had his "best interests" in mind by hiding > > > > > > this information from him originally. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, bottom line, the issue of whether TM or > > > > > > the TMO were a religion had nothing to do with > > > > > > *MY* walking away from TM. But that issue was > > > > > > and will continue to be important to those > > > > > > who feel a loyalty to a particular religion, > > > > > > and later find that information was hidden > > > > > > from them that caused them to (in their own > > > > > > eyes) violate the tenets of that religion. > > > > > > > > > > > > That is essentially what you have been advo- > > > > > > cating lately. > > > >
