--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "ShempMcGurk" <shempmcg...@...> wrote: > > You used the word "ideally" below several times in answering questions. > > I'm wondering whether "ideally" reflects your own feeling on what is ideal > (perhaps with a touch of the western idea of meritocracy thrown in that is > influencing the use of that word) or whether that is, in fact, what the vedas > say.
I used the word "ideal" to differentiate the varna system in actual practice in India. As practiced today, the varna system is a devolution of the intent of the vedas. You are right that I am inserting my own interpretation of meritocracy as thought of in the western culture. I believe that the vedas had the same intent. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "ShempMcGurk" <shempmcgurk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > > > In the vedic varnas, the brahmanas are the smartest of all the four > > > > groups in society. However, they don't rule the people, nor do the > > > > hard work. The brahmans are responsible for the priestly or advisory > > > > duties in society. The kshatreyas are in charge of the executive and > > > > enforcement work. For busines and mercantile work, the vaishas perform > > > > them. The rest of the hard work is given to the sudras. > > > > > > > > So in this system, everyone benefits for the sake of forming a society > > > > or a community. Anyone who doesn't fit in the system becomes a > > > > chandala, or the "untouchables". > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there upward or downward mobility between the groups during one's > > > lifetime? Can a sudra become a Brahman or a kshatreya become a Brahman? > > > Or can a Brahman who messes his life up end up a sudra by the end of his > > > life? > > > > In an ideal varna system, the status in society is earned not inherited by > > families. Those who have the aptitude for intellectual pursuits and > > education should be considered as brahmanas. It should not matter whether > > he or she was born under the other groups in society. > > > > Conversely, those who were born into a brahmana family but do not have the > > aptitude for intellectual work should not be considered as a brahmana in > > society. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or does this just happen between lifetimes, ie. if you start off at the > > > lower rung -- sudras -- if you do a good job at each level you will get > > > to be braman in four lifetimes? > > > > > > > > Ideally, if a person is qualified for intellectual work, then he or she > > should be considered a brahmana. > > > > > > > > > > And can you be enlightened as a, say, sudra? Or do you have to wait > > > until you are a Brahman before the opportunity for enlightenment is > > > available to you? > > > > A sudra can be enlightened just like anybody else. Enlightenment is > > independent of your status in life. As MMY states, enlightenment is > > attainable by anybody. It's a matter of achieving the highest level of > > consciousness, Unity Consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Archer" <rick@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > by Isaac Asimov > > > > > What is intelligence, anyway? When I was in the army, I received the > > > > > kind of > > > > > aptitude test that all soldiers took and, against a normal of 100, > > > > > scored > > > > > 160. No one at the base had ever seen a figure like that, and for two > > > > > hours > > > > > they made a big fuss over me. (It didn't mean anything. The next day > > > > > I was > > > > > still a buck private with KP - kitchen police - as my highest duty.) > > > > > All my life I've been registering scores like that, so that I have the > > > > > complacent feeling that I'm highly intelligent, and I expect other > > > > > people to > > > > > think so too. Actually, though, don't such scores simply mean that I > > > > > am very > > > > > good at answering the type of academic questions that are considered > > > > > worthy > > > > > of answers by people who make up the intelligence tests - people with > > > > > intellectual bents similar to mine? > > > > > For instance, I had an auto-repair man once, who, on these > > > > > intelligence > > > > > tests, could not possibly have scored more than 80, by my estimate. I > > > > > always > > > > > took it for granted that I was far more intelligent than he was. Yet, > > > > > when > > > > > anything went wrong with my car I hastened to him with it, watched him > > > > > anxiously as he explored its vitals, and listened to his > > > > > pronouncements as > > > > > though they were divine oracles - and he always fixed my car. > > > > > Well, then, suppose my auto-repair man devised questions for an > > > > > intelligence > > > > > test. Or suppose a carpenter did, or a farmer, or, indeed, almost > > > > > anyone but > > > > > an academician. By every one of those tests, I'd prove myself a > > > > > moron, and > > > > > I'd be a moron, too. In a world where I could not use my academic > > > > > training > > > > > and my verbal talents but had to do something intricate or hard, > > > > > working > > > > > with my hands, I would do poorly. My intelligence, then, is not > > > > > absolute but > > > > > is a function of the society I live in and of the fact that a small > > > > > subsection of that society has managed to foist itself on the rest as > > > > > an > > > > > arbiter of such matters. > > > > > Consider my auto-repair man, again. He had a habit of telling me jokes > > > > > whenever he saw me. One time he raised his head from under the > > > > > automobile > > > > > hood to say: "Doc, a deaf-and-mute guy went into a hardware store to > > > > > ask for > > > > > some nails. He put two fingers together on the counter and made > > > > > hammering > > > > > motions with the other hand. The clerk brought him a hammer. He shook > > > > > his > > > > > head and pointed to the two fingers he was hammering. The clerk > > > > > brought him > > > > > nails. He picked out the sizes he wanted, and left. Well, doc, the > > > > > next guy > > > > > who came in was a blind man. He wanted scissors. How do you suppose > > > > > he asked > > > > > for them?" > > > > > Indulgently, I lifted by right hand and made scissoring motions with > > > > > my > > > > > first two fingers. Whereupon my auto-repair man laughed raucously and > > > > > said, > > > > > "Why, you dumb jerk, He used his voice and asked for them." Then he > > > > > said > > > > > smugly, "I've been trying that on all my customers today." "Did you > > > > > catch > > > > > many?" I asked. "Quite a few," he said, "but I knew for sure I'd > > > > > catch you." > > > > > "Why is that?" I asked. "Because you're so goddamned educated, doc, I > > > > > knew > > > > > you couldn't be very smart." > > > > > And I have an uneasy feeling he had something there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
