Bill, sorry about the length of this post, I'd like to say I wrote it right after my first meditation, but the truth is I wrote it right after my first coffee. Blame it on Robin! I appreciate your willingness, to consider some exchanges on this topic. I can cover 280 to 400 CE so between the two of us we have almost 600 years to get us into trouble. IOM, there are many good storytellers on FFL. I believe one of the reasonsis that many here are comfortable with conflict, which I believe is fundamental to good story telling. Among other things, Robin believes there is something out of balance with Westerners following Eastern paths. As you can imagine, his position brought a strong basis for conflict to his exchanges on this forum. I also think he enjoyed the fact there are writers on FFL who know how to develop a good argument (I exclude myself from this group as I just like to *have* a good argument). Even the ones who only have time for spitballs seem to add velocity to the real arguments. Whether we can recapture the magic of the exchanges with Robin- I don't know. I thought I'd start with a sweeping generalization or two and then ask you a few leading questions. First, call me a civil engineer or something, but I believe witharguments like Robin's you have to look at the founding of the Christian church and what I see there is a weak foundational structure with major cracks, and a potential for soil liquefaction. Frankly, I don't see the same issueswith many Eastern traditions. Second, to touch on my change of subject line. If you're as shallow as I am and reduce everything to its monetized brand value (half of the Oracle of Omaha's magic) you might be forgiven for thinking the real trinity of the Roman Catholic Church was Jesus of Nazareth, Paul the Apostle (who never met Jesus, equestrian skills aside) and the Emperor Constantine. IOM, take one of these three out of the mix and no Christianity as weknow it today. If some Arabian magician gave me one wish to go back in time and meet one of these threeit would be tempting to go back, and hear Jesus give "The Sermon on the Mount". But I haveto be honest it would be more tempting to head back to the Milvian Bridge and put a bullet in Constantine as he was designing the top of the Pope's scepter. But after more thought, I'd have to choose to go back and run interference of Paul. IMO, Paul was the Steve Jobs of my trinity and one of the most if not thee influential individuals in history. A few questions, I'll try to keep them pre 200 CE. 1. Is it true Jesus lived and died as a practicing Jew? 2. Is it true the 12 apostles also lived and died as practicing Jews? 3. Is it true Paul was not a Jew? 3. Is it true Paul came up with the Greek title Christ in his quest to baptize Greeks and other non-Jews in the Roman Empire? 4. Is it true, as a practicing Jew, Jesus never thought of himself as a Christ? 5. Is it true the 12 apostles, appointed by Jesus, never called Jesus the Christ? 6. Is it more accurate to call its Paul's church than Peter's- since the only thing left related to Peter is the garbage dump, where Peter was crucified, given by Constantine to the early Christians where St. Peters Basilica was build? 7. Is it true that Peter and the other apostles, appointed by Jesus, were not at allconvinced that Jesus would have agreed with Paul's quest to baptize gentiles, and specifically disagreedwith Paul's decision to forgo circumcision (a required Jewish practice) which gentileswould never have agreed to and if Paul had not dropped it as a requirement, could have stopped his ministry and theglobalization of the teaching of Jesus right in its tracks? 8. Would you agree that the real antecedent for the film "The passion of the Christ" is "Alien" or "Texas Chain Saw Massacre" rather than "The Last Temptation of Christ"? 9. Would you agree there has never been anything like crucifixion in the Jewish culture and this was completely a Roman form of terror? 10. Is it true (this is a 312-337 question so you can consider it a statement) it’s easy to draw a direct line from Constantine-a rabid anti-semite, who established Christianity as the official church of the Roman Empire (and arguably Europe), to the Holocaust? I'm too lazy to state sources as WillyTex does, please, just consider it a personal polemic on "Why I'm not a Christian" (which I'm sure you know is a title I stole from Bertrand Russell). .
________________________________ From: William Parkinson <ameradi...@yahoo.com> To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:47:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul Now I understand!! Well, my own expertise runs from 200 B.C.E. to 200 C.E.. My concentration and my doctoral program was in Early Christianity, Second Temple Judaism, and to a lesser degree Greco-Roman mystery cults (in particular, Mithras and Hekete). Once we get beyond 200 C.E., I fear I will be a precious little use. But certainly anything anyone wants to discuss I would be open to chiming in if I felt like anything worthwhile to add. What did you have in mind? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price <bobpri...@yahoo.com> To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul Bill, I was using AD (Anno Domini) interchangeably with CE (common or Christian era). The period I'm hoping to start a new discussion on is 31/32 C.E. (death of Jesus) to May 22, 337 C.E. (death of Constantine). When Robin returned some excellent serves from a number of FFL posters the focus was the 13th centuryand 1943 (I believe the 1943 reference concerned the bombing by the Allies of the Benedictine Monastery at Mount Cassino). http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,796392,00.html From: William Parkinson <ameradi...@yahoo.com> To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:36:08 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul Bob did you mean 37C.E.? I have never heard of a 337C.E. date. Is that what you meant? Cheers Bill From: Bob Price <bobpri...@yahoo.com> To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] A word from St. Paul 1 Corinthians 13 American Standard Version (ASV) 1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
