--- In [email protected], "Cliff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You mis-read my post. I was referring to the original invasion > by Joshua back around 1400 BC.
Ah, point noted. > > As you point out, the more recent "invasion" is far more complicated, > although better weapons and strategy also play a considerable > role in who wins the ongoing disputes. > > --- In [email protected], anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], wmurphy77 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > the *JEWS* bought most of the land from > > > absentie lanlords (Arabs), it was nothing but barren. The JEWS made > > > it what it is today....isn't that reason enough? (Plus having been > > there since the beginning of time). > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Cliff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > My answer was > > > quite serious. Anyone who thinks that God had more to do > > > with the initial Jewish invasion of the "Promised Land" than the > > > better weapons and strategy employed by the Jewish people > > > when they arrived is not thinking rationally. > > > > > > They [Jews in Israel] invaded a land that was already occupied and > > > quite productive and killed or enslaved pretty much everyone > > > there. Because "God gave it" to them? > > > > Well, you both can't be right! :) As usual, its a bit more complex and > > nuanced. Some additional and contracting views, plus a bit of history. > > > > > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/01/02/MN70515.DTL > > Compensation for Palestinians has long been a thorn in > > Israeli-Palestinian relations. In 1948, from 430,000 to 650,000 > > Palestinians left or were forced to flee their homes inside what was > > known as 'the Green Line,' or present-day Israel minus the West Bank > > and Gaza. > > > > Palestinians insist that any final settlement with Israel include a > > 'right of return' for the now 3.5 million refugees and their > > descendants, in accordance with U.N. General Assembly resolution 194, > > which also mandated compensation for those not wishing to go home. > > They estimate the compensation bill at $550 billion. > > > > Israel, which has no intention of altering its demographic balance > > between Arabs and Jews, has long insisted that it has no moral or > > legal responsibility to allow Palestinians to return to their old > > towns and villages. It argues that most refugees left of their own > > accord or at the behest of Arab leaders. > > > > Suggested Israeli solutions have included starting a compensation fund > > and allowing small numbers of Palestinians to reunify with their > > families. Last year, former Prime Minister Ehud Barak set limits on > > how many Palestinians could return to areas within Israel proper. > > > > But unlike the vast majority of Jews who fled their homes and > > prospered in Israel, most Palestinians ended up in poverty in Arab > > lands. Israel charges those nations with cynically manipulating the > > refugees for a wider political agenda. > > > > 'In a time of peace, Israel will be ready to take part in the effort > > to heal the wounds of war out of goodwill, friendship and good > > neighborliness -- and under no circumstances out of feelings of guilt > > or responsibility for causing the conflict,' Barak told Parliament > > last year. > > > > > > http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html > > The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-48 for a variety of reasons. > > Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands > > more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the > > advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to > > avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle. Had the Arabs > > accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have > > become a refugee and an independent Arab state would now exist beside > > Israel. > > > > The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks > > immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. > > The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated > > the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its > > end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to > > all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends. > > > > All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their > > homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref > > el-Aref explained in his history of the 1948 war: > > > > The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an > > eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the > > Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered > > and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy. > > > > By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine > > Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas > > to these refugees and to seal the borders against them. > > > > Meanwhile, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and > > become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this > > appeal on October 2, 1947: > > > > We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and > > establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, > > here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the > > Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State > > and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and > > progress of sovereign equals. > > > > On November 30, the day after the UN partition vote, the Jewish Agency > > announced: "The main theme behind the spontaneous celebrations we are > > witnessing today is our community's desire to seek peace and its > > determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs...." > > > > > > http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v3n06/ > NGOsPromotePalestinianPositionOnRefugeesPart1.htm > > Refugee claims, resulting from the 1947-1948 and 1967 wars, are among > > the most divisive and intractable issues in the Israeli-Palestinian > > conflict. While the Palestinian political leadership consistently > > claims a 'right of return', (often couched in terms such as "historic > > justice") others see this as equivalent to seeking the destruction of > > Israel. (Legal Aspects of the Palestinian Refugee Question, Ruth > > Lapidoth) In many cases, prominent NGOs that claim to focus on human > > rights and humanitarian issues have added their voices and formidable > > resources in support of the Palestinian position on this very > > sensitive subject. Similarly, they often repeat Palestinian claims > > regarding the numbers of people involved (the number of refugees from > > the 1947/8 war was approximately 650,000; estimates regarding the > > number of descendants vary considerably.) In Part 1 of its analysis on > > this issue, NGO Monitor surveys the position of prominent > > international NGOs, including policy regarding Jewish refugees who > > fled Arab countries after 1947. Part 2 will examine BADIL, and other > > Palestinian NGO organizations that promote the "right of return". > > > > INTERNATONAL NGOs > > > > Amnesty International covers issues related to Middle East refugees in > > great detail, including Iran and Iraq. Regarding the Palestinians, > > this NGO calls on Middle East governments to "Ensure that the right to > > return or compensation for Palestinian refugees is respected: these > > rights should be given a high priority in the Middle East peace process." > > > > > > http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/19990802ftr.html > > 2 August 1999When asked what the solution to the Arab-Israeli water > > conflict might be, Thomas Stauffer, guest speaker at a 22 July 1999 > > Center luncheon meeting, responded with swift, authoritative candor: > > The solution, he proclaimed, is "war." > > > > However grim, Stauffer's insights into what he calls the "zero-sum > > game" of Arab-Israeli water rights are as informed as they are stark. > > An internationally recognized authority on energy and water issues, he > > is currently involved in an initiative to develop formulas for > > compensating Palestinians whose resources have been expropriated by > > Israel. This is made more difficult by the fact that Israel refuses > > even to recognize that it has illegally occupied Palestinian land. In > > fact, Israel clearly maintains that it should never be held > > accountable for stolen resources. If such an accounting were made, > > Israel would insist that "someone else" should pay for it. > > > > Stauffer's comprehensive approach to this poorly understood subject is > > grounded in international law. Stressing that the complexity of the > > issues fueling the Arab-Israeli conflict and the compelling scarcity > > of water resources demand painstaking research and > > documentationparticularly as the peace process approaches "final > > status" negotiationsStauffer bemoaned the absence of such attention > > to detail on the Palestinian side, referring to Palestinian > > negotiators "who do less homework than most freshmen." Stumbling as > > they are toward a virtual surrender of their national aspirations, > > these negotiators would do well to buttress their legitimate claims > > with facts. Barring this, the diametrically opposite position of > > Israel, clearly the more powerful party, will seal the Palestinians' > > fate and leave them beholden to their occupier. > > > > Should this happen, Israel's possession of what Stauffer calls the > > "spoils of [the 1967] war" will become legitimized by an international > > agreement. "The price of peace," said Stauffer, will then become > > apparent. For if Israel is to compromise on its control of water > > resources, it will do so only with compensation, as was the case with > > Israel's withdrawal from the Sinai after the 1967 war; while mandated > > by international law, this withdrawal was ultimately secured with > > U.S.-paid compensation for oil fields the Israelis were "giving up." > > Similarly, if the Palestinians manage to broker a deal involving > > access to water or compensation for expropriated resources, Israel > > would likely not have to pay. > > > > > > http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2000/428/428p14.htm > > I am a card-carrying Palestinian. The card is a small orange identity > > card. This card doesn't so much prove my Palestinian identity as mark > > me out as a subject of Israel's occupation. The card decides where I > > can and can't go in the land of my people. The Israeli authorities use > > it to stop me from going to Jerusalem or wherever else I please. > > > > The Palestinian refugees, officially numbering 4 million out of an > > estimated total world Palestinian population of 8.5 million people, > > have spent 50 years living as refugees. Various institutions > > acknowledge Palestinians as refugees, but few have acted in any > > significant way to solve their plight. The UN Relief and Works Agency > > (UNRWA), for example, is used by Israel and its allies to keep the > > refugees' heads just above water sometimes not even that. > > > > Most discussion about refugees revolves around compensation and > > resettlement. The vast majority of Palestinian refugees express the > > opposite desire: repatriation remains their main goal. > > > > UN General Assembly resolution 194 is the foundation of the refugees' > > claim. It provides options of return and compensation, and > > compensation and resettlement for those who do not wish to return. > > Importantly, it does not dictate to the Palestinians their choice, as > > is being done in the "peace process". > > > > The right of return for the refugees must remain an inalienable right. > > This is one of the main things Palestinians and those who are in > > solidarity with the Palestinian people are struggling for. > > > > > > http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_un_194.php > > The third session of the General Assembly refused to accept any > > decision altering the Partition Resolution of the preceding year, nor > > did it decide on ways of its implementation. Instead, on November 12, > > 1948, with Resolution 194 (III)it decided to set up a United Nations > > Conciliation Commission, reiterated the decision on > > internationalization of Jerusalem, and laid down several principles on > > the refugee question. > > > > Since the War of Independence was still going on, most of Resolution > > 194 deals with seeking a diplomatic solution to the conflict, > > including setting up an international Conciliation Commission to > > mediate between the parties. The refugees are mentioned only in > > Article 11, which resolved: > > > > * ... that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live > > at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the > > earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for > > the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage > > to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, > > should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible. > > > > Article 11 also instructed the Conciliation Commission: > > > > * ... to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic > > and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation. > > > > Palestinian Arabs constantly repeat claims of rights based on > > Resolution 194, in particular the right to return to lands that are > > now part of the State of Israel. That position has no basis, certainly > > not in Resolution 194. General Assembly resolutions, unlike those of > > the Security Council, are non-binding and essentially are only > > suggestions. Resolution 194 does not use the language of "rights" or > > "right of return". The resolution does not specify the nationality of > > the refugees; recall that the Palestinian Arab refugees, who > > voluntarily left Israel at the urging of their leaders, are > > approximately equal in number to the Jews who fled persecution from > > Arab countries. Any "right of return" or right to compensation is > > equally present in Resolution 194 for Arabs and Jews. Since the > > resolution also specifies that its recommendations would apply to > > refugees who wish "to live at peace with their neighbors," Arabs would > > be excluded. It was the Arabs who began the war in 1947 and they > > continue to be at war with Israel today. > > > > The present-day insistance on a "Right of Return" by Palestinians is a > > transparent attempt to eliminate Israel by means other than war. If > > all the refugee Palestinian Arabs, and their descendents, are given > > the right to return to Israel, then Israel quickly becomes a country > > with a Jewish minority. The majority Arabs would put an end to Israel > > without delay. Therefore, any ultimate resolution of this issue will > > certainly be in terms of limited return (perhaps limited to the few > > living Arabs who actually once resided in Israel) plus a forumula of > > compensation for both Arabs and Jews who were displaced by events > > surrounding the 1948 War of Independence. > > > > > > http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/the_refugee_issue_p.asp > > In the 1948 war, 600,000 Jewish refugees were expelled from Arab lands > > including Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and > > Morocco -- leaving behind an estimated $30 billion in assets. These > > Jewish refugees were welcomed by Israel, and with their 2 million > > descendants, they now comprise a majority population of the State of > > Israel. > > > > In the same war, an equal number of Palestinians refugees fled to Arab > > countries, primarily Jordan and Egypt. From 1948-67, these refugees > > were left in squalid camps by their host society, Jordan and Egypt. > > The United Nations estimates that they and their descendents now > > number about 3.7 million -- living in the West Bank and Gaza, Lebanon, > > Jordan, and throughout the Western World. > > > > Yasser Arafat demands the "right of return" for all 3.7 million > > Palestinians to within the borders of the State of Israel. > > > > Israel maintains that these refugees primarily left of their own > > accord, and that Palestinian demands that these refugees be absorbed > > into the State of Israel is just a political move to destroy the > > Jewish state through demographics. > > > > In the Gaza Strip today, 420,000 Palestinians still live in squalid > > refugee camps, under full jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority. > > > > Who is responsible for these refugees? > > > > IN THEIR OWN WORDS > > > > Did Israel forcibly evict these 600,000 Arabs from their homes in > > 1948? Or did they leave voluntarily? This is the salient question. > > > > Here is a collection of historical quotations from Arab leaders, > > relating to these Palestinian refugees: > > > > On April 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine > > Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: > > > > "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce... They preferred to > > abandon their homes, belongings and everything they possessed." > > > > On September 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, > > secretary of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, as saying: > > > > "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence > > of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish > > state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..." > > > > On October 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness > > account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: > > > > "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the > > flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher > > Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit... And it was clearly > > intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish > > protection would be regarded as renegades." > > > > The Jordanian daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: > > > > "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave > > their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab > > invasion armies." > > > > On June 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, > > wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam > > Pasha, then League secretary, had... > > > > "...assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and > > of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade... Brotherly > > advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes > > and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." > > > > On April 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes > > Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: > > > > "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders > > who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumors > > exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order > > to inflame the Arabs... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts > > of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and > > property to the enemy." > > > > Another refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: > > "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we > > got out, but they did not get in." > > > > Former Prime Minister of Syria, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, > > published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the > > Arab failure in 1948: > > > > "The fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the > > inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering > > Arab countries... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees > > by calling on them and pleading with them to leave their land." > > > > In the March 1976 issue of "Falastin a-Thaura," then the official PLO > > journal, PLO spokesman Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen") wrote: > > > > "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians > > from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced > > them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into > > prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." > > > > British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 records: > > > > "Following a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat > > reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against > > the Jews... they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and > > other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and > > they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded > > them unnecessarily to leave their homes." ------------------------ Yahoo! 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