Xeno, no need for "exact word-for-word correlations," just make sure you use the correct term for what you're talking about (especially if you're citing the title of an article or book).
This collection of pieces is not about psychopathy and creativity; it's about psychoticism and creativity, i.e., whether creative people have a greater tendency to psychosis (psychopaths, as noted, are very rarely psychotic; they need to be in close touch with reality to be effective). >From the abstract you quote: "It is argued that the P scale reflects the criminal, antisocial aspects of psychopathy and that the results probably have no direct implications for the suggestion that psychopathy and psychoticism are related in some fundamental way." That there may be some statistical correlations or overlap between psychoticism and psychopathy does not justify using the terms as synonyms. --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" wrote: > > > > This is not a discussion of psychopathy and creativity; it's > > a discussion of "psychoticism" and creativity. Xeno misread > > the word in the title somehow. > > > > According to the person who coined the term, "psychoticism" > > reflects an increased vulnerability to psychosis. Psychosis > > is itself a very general term referring to loss of contact > > with reality. As it happens, psychopaths are very rarely > > psychotic. > > > > Here's a good basic discussion of psychopathy that debunks > > some of the myths that surround it in the popular > > understanding: > > > > http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-psychopath-means > > > > Also, as I pointed out to Xeno, DSM does not use psychopathy > > as a diagnostic label (nor, according to Wikipedia, does any > > psychological or psychiatric organization). However, > > according to the Scientific American article I just cited, > > DSM-IV "describes a condition termed antisocial personality > > disorder (ASPD), which is characterized by a longstanding > > history of criminal and often physically aggressive behavior, > > referring to it as synonymous with psychopathy. Yet research > > demonstrates that measures of psychopathy and ASPD overlap > > only moderately." > > I posted the link for Share because she shows a tendency to connect things > mentally in a very loose fashion, and had mused on the relationship of > psychopathy to creativity. That discussion mentioned that '...unusual > responses to word association test could be used as a measure of this > hypothetical quality. His suggestion is that individuals with an > over-inclusive style of thinking have a larger sample of ideas on which a > conclusion can be based. These people he concludes are able to come up with > innovative, unusual and creative ideas more easily than people who have a > more conventional view of relevance to a problem'. Share seems to share this > over-inclusive style of thinking as I do, but you do not. It obviously leads > to greater errors, it is a synthetic style of thinking, rather than analytic. > The following paper indicates that psychopathy and psychoticism are > correlated, and therefore are not entirely distinct descriptive categories, > but overlapping to some extent. I did notice the difference in spelling and > meaning, but I just jumbled it all together as it was related. Now if I had > sent the post directed at you, I probably would not have had the patience to > discover all the exact word-for-word correlations necessary to get by you, > and thus would have never have even attempted it. > > Psychopathy and the personality dimensions of psychoticism, extraversion and > neuroticism > Robert D. Hare > Department of Psychology, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada > V6T 1W5 > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0191886982900721 > > Abstract > > The Eysenck Personality Questionnaire (EPQ) was administered to 173 male > prison inmates for whom reliable assessments of psychopathy were available. > Psychopathy was significantly correlated with the Psychoticism (P) scale (r = > 0.16) and the Lie scale (r = 0.14), but not with the Extraversion (E) or > Neuroticism (N) scales. Zone (octant) analysis indicated that psychopathy was > not associated with any particular combination of P, E and N scores. > Additional analyses, based on the discriminant function procedure described > in the EPQ manual, indicated that inmates with high assessments of > psychopathy were significantly less psychiatrically abnormal, in the EPQ > sense, than were those with low assessments of psychopathy. A series of > comparisons was also made between the P scale and a 22-item psychopathy > checklist. The P scale was significantly correlated with six of the items, > and with factors 1 (r = 0.30) and 4 (r = 0.19) that emerged from a principal > components analysis of the checklist. Factor 1 is related to an impulsive, > unstable lifestyle with no long-term commitments and factor 4 to the early > appearance of antisocial behavior. It is argued that the P scale reflects the > criminal, antisocial aspects of psychopathy and that the results probably > have no direct implications for the suggestion that psychopathy and > psychoticism are related in some fundamental way. A canonical analysis > indicated that some interesting relations may exist between the EPQ variables > and the psychopathy factors. > > > > --- In [email protected], Share Long wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for this, Xeno. It's a very rich field of inquiry for sure. > > > Will read more thoroughly this evening. I admit I'm not a big fan of > > > the DSM IV nor of diagnostic labels in general, even in the field of > > > medicine. Though I see the necessity for them. And how can creativity > > > really be defined, well definitively? I'm aware of operational > > > definitions. But isn't being human more than just a collection of > > > operations? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Friday, February 8, 2013 3:21 PM > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Psycopathy and Occupation > > > > > > > > >  > > > Share, here is an on-line discussion of Psychopathy and Creativity. Not > > > definitive of course, but it has some interest. > > > > > > http://www.personalityresearch.org/papers/porzio.html > > > > > > ==================== > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Share Long wrote: > > > > > > > > Good question turq wrote:àI wonder what it is about actually > > > > *being* creative that helps those who are to avoid psychopathic > > > > tendencies, and what it is about psychopaths that makes them envy real > > > > creative people enough to fake it, so as to be thought of as one of > > > > them. > > > > > > > > I reply:àI think truly creative people are following their own > > > > muse, their own flow of life, to a good extent, irregardless of how > > > > others respond.àMy guess would be that psychopaths wish they too > > > > had this kind of inner freedom.àIt may seem like they have a lot of > > > > outer freedom, but they are probably intelligent enough to realize that > > > > this is not worth much without the inner freedom too. àà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: turquoiseb > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Friday, February 8, 2013 8:58 AM > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Psycopathy and Occupation > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > --- In [email protected], "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Kevin Dutton is a research psychologist at the Calleva > > > > > Research Centre for Evolution and Human Science, Magdalen > > > > > College, University of Oxford and is a fellow of the Royal > > > > > Society of Medicine and the Society for the Scientific > > > > > Study of Psychopathy. He has produced the following lists > > > > > indicating occupations that have the highest and lowest > > > > > rates of pyschopathy. > > > > > > > > > > Occupations with the highest rates of psychopathy: > > > > > > > > > > 1. CEO > > > > > 2. Lawyer > > > > > 3. Media (Television/Radio) > > > > > 4. Salesperson > > > > > 5. Surgeon > > > > > 6. Journalist > > > > > 7. Police officer > > > > > 8. Clergy person > > > > > 9. Chef > > > > > 10. Civil servant > > > > > > > > > > Occupations with the lowest rates of psychopathy: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Care aide > > > > > 2. Nurse > > > > > 3. Therapist > > > > > 4. Craftsperson > > > > > 5. Beautician/Stylist > > > > > 6. Charity worker > > > > > 7. Teacher > > > > > 8. Creative artist > > > > > 9. Doctor > > > > > 10. Accountant > > > > > > > > > > Number 8 in the first list is interesting, while it uses the > > > > > terminology associated with Christian metaphysics, it could > > > > > just as easily be applied to Rabbi, Ayatollah, and Guru, > > > > > though there might be cultural differences that would alter > > > > > the position on the list. We do see a lot of strange and > > > > > abusive Gurus, of which many here feel MMY was one. > > > > > > > > What I find interesting are numbers 4 and 8 on the > > > > second list. Many on the non-psychopathic list are > > > > care-givers or those who have chosen a profession > > > > based on service to others, something I would expect > > > > to help keep psychopathy at bay. But craftspersons > > > > (a term I assume refers to someone good enough at a > > > > craft as to be considered somewhat of an artist at > > > > it) and creative artists? > > > > > > > > The connection this provokes in me is that most of > > > > the gurus/teachers/spiritual leaders I've run into > > > > or studied over the years whom I would assess as > > > > suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder > > > > and possibly psychopathy were *not* creative > > > > personally. But they longed to be *perceived* by > > > > others as creative. Fred Lenz - Rama, for example, > > > > couldn't play an instrument or read music, but he > > > > claimed to have "composed" all of the music that > > > > Zazen (a band he formed composed of real, profes- > > > > sional musicians, who I knew well, and well enough > > > > to know that they wrote every note) recorded. He > > > > didn't...he just claimed that. Similarly, there > > > > are strong rumors that he didn't write the "Snow- > > > > boarding To Nirvana" book that he published under > > > > his name, but instead farmed it out to students > > > > of his to write, and then signed his name to it. > > > > > > > > I've heard similar stories of abusive or contro- > > > > versial gurus/teachers doing exactly the same thing, > > > > and ripping off creative works done by other people > > > > so that they could sign their name to them. We've > > > > all heard stories of Maharishi doing exactly the > > > > same thing, starting with commentaries on the Gita > > > > that almost certainly weren't actually written by > > > > him, and continuing through his presentation of > > > > stuff about A-V, S-V, and other subjects that he > > > > "borrowed" from other people. > > > > > > > > I wonder what it is about actually *being* creative > > > > that helps those who are to avoid psychopathic > > > > tendencies, and what it is about psychopaths that > > > > makes them envy real creative people enough to > > > > fake it, so as to be thought of as one of them. > > > > > > > > > >
