Hey Ann,

I just now read your response here to my comment. Apologies I didn't see it 
before. (Sometimes I just plain old miss responses in discussion board formats. 
If I haven't read here in awhile I'll search my name to see if something has 
come up that I might want to address...thus, I just found the response.)

Very well stated - your response. Part of it brought to mind "restorative 
justice" which folks and/or I have probably mentioned here before. But, like 
you stated, some persons don't seem to have the ability to feel empathy/hurt 
when they have harmed another and thus will never be able to own up. That's 
been a hard lesson to learn and I don't know if I've fully learned it. I battle 
cynicism more than I prefer these days; but I figure it's part of my current 
personal life curriculum and at some point I'll have a more healthy (as opposed 
to unhealthy) cynicism. At least I hope so. It's a funky up and down at this 
point. 

Thanks again for the response and for the kind words. 
~Carol :)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <jchwelch@> wrote:
> >
> > I partly agree Ann.
> 
> Hi Carol, I partly agree with what I said also! Nothing is ever as cut and 
> dried as how I presented it. There will always be individual circumstances 
> that make situations very complex and very individual. But basically, I think 
> I believe what I wrote but know that there are exceptions to my points, there 
> would have to be - it is life.
> > 
> > The point where I disagree is when power differentials are at play and if 
> > the person holding the position of power ab-uses their position of trust to 
> > their advantage. This of course happens in other areas besides sexual.
> 
> I believe certain individuals in positions of power can abuse that privilege 
> of having power. But power is granted to people by others. There is no 
> inherent power that just emerges that automatically makes one revered as a 
> great financier, a world class artist, a wise sage or a sexy rock star. In 
> all cases, these individuals must first present as such and certain people 
> will gravitate to them and in so doing they often give away their own 
> authority or power to these perceived 'greater beings', usually to gain 
> something in return. 
> 
> Sometimes it is in the form of allowing the powerful one to tell you how to 
> live your life. 
> Sometimes it is thinking by somehow adhering oneself to the perceived 
> 'greater human' (either in the form of physical intimacy or simply the 
> intimacy of being as close to them as possible) that one will receive a gift, 
> a blessing, some transfer of that power or it could simply be that it feels 
> good. But I still assert that you have to be willing to give away a certain 
> degree of your autonomy as a human to do this. When you give something away 
> you can also open yourself up to something ultimately unwanted or not counted 
> on.
> > 
> > What makes it worse is when any harms that are exacted because of that 
> > abuse of trust are then denied or swept under the rug or minimized. 
> 
> For sure, and it is extra hurtful and a sign of the cowardice of the one 
> attempting to hide what they have done. It is doubly despicable in my 
> opinion. My rule: if you're going to do something you know is wrong or you 
> think you may get caught out on then have the gumption to be ready to own up 
> to it. If you've got it in you to violate or trespass against someone then 
> you need to find it within yourself to own it.
> > 
> > Yes, the adult-of-reasonable-sound-mind victim of such abuse of trust  has 
> > to ultimately accept their responsibility for their choices, even those 
> > made under undue influence or because of indoctrination. How much is the 
> > victim responsible for and how much is the person in power responsible for? 
> > Can it even be measured?
> 
> Measuring may not be useful - bottom line: it happened. Now comes the moment 
> when both sides need to decide what to do with that. The violated needs to 
> think about themselves first, they can not be responsible for the other 
> person/the abuser. The violator needs to look at what would allow them to do 
> what they did and they DO have some responsibility to the violated, to at 
> least, in the most ideal scenario, admit, in some way, their sense of what 
> they did. I think it is a fundamental part of the healing process for the 
> transgressor - to feel vulnerable, wounded, appalled, horrified and to let 
> those feelings be known to the abused. How often this happens is not often 
> enough. But if the abuser is to ever be free from what they did they must 
> feel, somehow and in some way, cut to the core. But often what it is that is 
> within someone capable of great tyranny that is the very thing that disallows 
> this sort of feeling of vulnerability or hurt as a result of having 
> profoundly injured someone emotionally or otherwise. Sociopathy is one word 
> for it.
> > 
> > I'm not condoning a victim mentality, but neither do I think "victim" is a 
> > dirty word. (Not saying anyone here thinks that.) I have been a victim (as 
> > I think most folks have sometime in their lives) and I have been an abuser. 
> > I'm not proud of either. If I can acknowledge both and admit it, I'm 
> > healthier for it. And hopefully have learned something in the process.
> 
> Yes, the fallibility of the human race is legendary. The woundedness of so 
> many could give rise to great beauty and but often it results in smallness 
> and hurt. Victims are those wounded but "victim" could be another word for 
> hero if one is big and if one is brave. I think you are probably one of those 
> heroes.
> > 
> > *********
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ann" <awoelflebater@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jason" <jedi_spock@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. 
> > > >  How much interest you should show in other people's private 
> > > > lives is a matter of debate.
> > > > 
> > > > As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the 
> > > > phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In 
> > > > business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on.
> > > > 
> > > > Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth 
> > > > and move on.  These women were adults and they knew what 
> > > > they were doing.  They are groupies voluntarily and to 
> > > > pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate.
> > > 
> > > I'd have to agree with most of what you write her Jason. I don't actually 
> > > think it's anyone's business who someone has an "affair" with, has oral 
> > > sex with, has a crush on, pursues sexually or otherwise what they do in 
> > > their "private" time. If someone "high up" in the TM movement is a serial 
> > > 'lover' the only reason it seems to be a big deal here is because some 
> > > people on this forum seem to think that such behaviour is not possible or 
> > > probable of someone with a higher state of consciousness. Of course, this 
> > > is balderdash. Certain activities are not appropriate or perhaps what I 
> > > might term 'moral' or 'ethical' but to view the equivalent of a CEO in a 
> > > corporation incapable of adultery or multiple affairs is just plain 
> > > silly. It is just that because this 'CEO' is part of a 'spiritual' 
> > > movement it is deemed extra offensive or, even sillier, points to the 
> > > fact in some people's estimation that the whole practice of TM is 
> > > invalid. 
> > > 
> > > And as far as 'preying' on poor women, the alleged transgressions of 
> > > Hagelin, unless he bound, drugged and gagged them, were simply mutual 
> > > consent relationships. I don't buy any of this poor victim stuff for 
> > > women (or men) who go into a sexual situation with another person as 
> > > anything other than a personal choice. If that ended up meaning their 
> > > spouse and family hated them as a result then - guess what- too bad. 
> > > These are adults who know how it all works. If you're married and you 
> > > choose to fuck someone else it is going to create havoc in your life. 
> > > Period. Deal with it, you'll have to in some form or other.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ---  Michael Jackson <mjackson74@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it 
> > > > > is legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It 
> > > > > has been this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin 
> > > > > to misbehave and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus 
> > > > > and their chief sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit 
> > > > > Desai, Kriyananda - when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have 
> > > > > thought of him as a sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to 
> > > > > be so - that's why he fled to Italy and stayed there till he died.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM 
> > > > > to whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as 
> > > > > a faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to 
> > > > > be known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. 
> > > > > All legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some 
> > > > > people who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven 
> > > > > snow can't stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its 
> > > > > honchos. Hagelin's behavior if true needs to be made public so the 
> > > > > people Hagelin pitches TM and his nonsense physics theories to know 
> > > > > how credible he is - after all, TM supposedly makes all things better 
> > > > > - and that should include behavior for those in positions of 
> > > > > leadership.
> > > > >  
> > > > > 
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >  From: feste37 <feste37@>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM
> > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion 
> > > > > â€â€Å" John Hagelin, Ph.D.,  Igor Kufayev, and 
> > > > > Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > What a pathetic post. Peddling old gossip, spreading rumors, 
> > > > > denouncing others for alleged immorality. If you can't do better than 
> > > > > this, Duveyoung, I suggest you STFU. 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > ---  Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I "know" only from gossip, but the gossip was a constant patter of 
> > > > > > "tidbits."  I saw him at dinner ONCE with a married lady, but that 
> > > > > > could have been innocent.......yeah, right, sure......  Small town 
> > > > > > with only about three restaurants to "get fancy dancy" and of 
> > > > > > course he was seen around town a lot.  I, with four kids at MSAE 
> > > > > > had all kinds of pot lucks etc. to hob nob enough to catch the 
> > > > > > gossip.  Of course, EVEN ONCE, would be enough for my "Lutheranism 
> > > > > > patterns amplified by my TM shame-on-you patterns" to glom onto and 
> > > > > > bookmark the anecdotes. Same deal with Bevan, and I personally saw 
> > > > > > Larry Domesh indulging in lust sitting a mere 20 feet from 
> > > > > > Maharishi as he lectured to a private group!  Yup, sex is a 
> > > > > > powerful mind twister, and, hey, the movement never gave us 
> > > > > > help-one to meet those challenges, so it's not like we can throw 
> > > > > > the book at these guys for moral-criminality, but yeah, I do.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Note:  The Karina Hotel fire was caused by a guy who started his 
> > > > > > girl friend's room on fire due to her "cheating" on him. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Careful out there on the long rounding courses, kiddies, people be 
> > > > > > destressing!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Edg
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ---  Michael Jackson <mjackson74@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have heard from time to time about Hagelin's womanizing but 
> > > > > > > nothing very specific - how do you know all this stuff or has it 
> > > > > > > just been kind of circulating around and not specific?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > >  From: Duveyoung <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:47 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion 
> > > > > > > â€â€Å" John Hagelin, Ph.D.,  Igor Kufayev, and Mark 
> > > > > > > McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ---  "Jason" <jedi_spock@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It takes two to tangle. You seem to imply that he was 
> > > > > > > > dragging them to the cave with a stone club in hand.
> > > > > > > > Looks like TM didn't do any good to those women either.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Maybe we can assign 50% of the blame on the married women, cuz, 
> > > > > > > hey, free will and all that, but..... nope.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The equation changes when one of the partners has so much to 
> > > > > > > offer to the (spiritually, financially, socially) impoverished 
> > > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > He took advantage.  He leveraged.  He must be held to the same 
> > > > > > > standard we held Maharishi about his sexcapades.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hagelin never not once ever never once ever said: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > "Hey, babe, nice just meeting you, a minion, and me, a royal 
> > > > > > > scion, and I know you're married, and it's a sin to fuck me, but, 
> > > > > > > hey, let's just put all that aside and not dwell on the YEARS AND 
> > > > > > > YEARS OF DAMAGE it would do to your husband and your kids if they 
> > > > > > > find out." 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hagelin never asked like that, right, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE 
> > > > > > > EXPECTED FROM THEM, cuz, HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.  And he knew 
> > > > > > > he was ABSOLUTELY HARMING these women -- "harming" means 
> > > > > > > "alluring women to change their lives so dramatically and so 
> > > > > > > covertly that it was certain that when the affairs were revealed, 
> > > > > > > all the lying and disloyalty would not be easily dealt with -- 
> > > > > > > without YEARS of professional help for all concerned." 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > That is fucking harmful. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > At least Dr. Bloomfield drugged his women and didn't try to 
> > > > > > > brainwash them into breaking the trust enjoyed with virtually 
> > > > > > > everyone in their social circle. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Yeah, sure, it MIGHT evolve some folks who would rise to the 
> > > > > > > challenges of facing ones personal integrity being shitcanned 
> > > > > > > after one has torn ones life up like a bad parking ticket, yep, 
> > > > > > > could be, but on average, every woman who ever fucked Hagelin had 
> > > > > > > to face themselves in perhaps the harshest light they've ever had 
> > > > > > > shone upon them.  And it wouldn't be pretty what they saw in the 
> > > > > > > mirror.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Each woman, on her death bed, gets to say:  "I fucked Hagelin and 
> > > > > > > ruined my marriage and my kids hate me to this day for what I did 
> > > > > > > to their father when I could have just gone to a marriage 
> > > > > > > counselor or something, or I could have at least faced their 
> > > > > > > father forthrightly about the marital dissonance and just said, 
> > > > > > > 'I'm ending it, but at least I'm being honest and not sneaking 
> > > > > > > behind your back and cuckolding you and doing all the things that 
> > > > > > > incur rage in others who are blinded by their trust and loyalty 
> > > > > > > towards the cheating partner and who will have no clue until it's 
> > > > > > > revealed to them as if a bomb going off.'"
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Who wants to say that?  Hagelin made every woman NOT CONSIDER 
> > > > > > > THAT.  He gave them, what?, promises of, what?  Don't even try to 
> > > > > > > tell me all the women were simply randy and Hagelin was a hunk.  
> > > > > > > Women don't go for that.  They might be horny, but it is only cuz 
> > > > > > > they want the whole man's wherewithal --  not just his dick. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > He leveraged by promising who knows what.  That is not saintly.  
> > > > > > > That is not honest.  That is fucking evil.  And TM didn't do a 
> > > > > > > THING TO CHANGE IT.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Edg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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