Thanks for the information, but Card already provided the definition of 'duHkham' from the Cologne Sanskrit Lexicon in his original post, so it looks like you're just making more stuff up and avoiding Card's question. "Is the meaning of viveka approximately the same in yoga and advaita-vedaanta?" Go figure.

But, your whole argument about Sanskrit speakers and chariots in India falls apart when we realize that the Aryans didn't invade India in chariots and didn't have chariots with a wheel and an axle. And, even if the Aryans did invade India, chariots are not the typical conveyance of nomads or cattle and sheep herders. Can you imagine driving a spoke-wheeled chariot over the snow-capped Trans-Himalaya mountains and then down the mountainside and into a flock of sheep and cattle? It's difficult to imagine but go figure.

Works cited:

Thapar, Romila. A History of India. Penguin Books.
p. 28-49.

Frawley, David. The Myth of the Aryan Invasion.

Read more:

Hooker, Richard. Ancient India – The Aryans. <>

Wheel and axle:

Evolution of the Chariot: <>

On 11/14/2013 8:02 AM, wrote:

Now you can understand how the local dravidians ported over the word "ho" to apply to their gender opposites.

---In, <sharelong60@...> wrote:

emptybill, thanks for taking the time to explain this in more detail. I think of space, etc. as simple so couldn't connect that to chaos. But maybe to primitive peoples the skies seemed very chaotic with changing weather patterns, etc. I like to imagine those moments when the first cave person had a different association with a sound like kha. I like to wonder about the journey from hole to sky/ether/space to chaos.

On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 8:49 PM, "emptybill@..." <emptybill@...> wrote:
Professor Troll couldn't read so here are some Wiki Holes.

Sukah and Dukha: the good and bad of it (FWIW).

Contemporary scholar Winthrop Sargeant explains the etymological roots of these terms as follows:^[45] <>

    The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were
    a nomadic, horse- and cattle-breeding people who travelled in
    horse- or ox-drawn vehicles. /Su/ and /dus/ are prefixes
    indicating good or bad. The word /kha/, in later Sanskrit meaning
    "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole,"
    particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus
    /sukha/ … meant, originally, "having a good axle hole," while
    /duhkha/ meant "having a poor axle hole," leading to discomfort.

---In, <punditster@...> wrote:

So, you don't know any Tibetan - I thought so.

This has got to be one of the most misleading and silly answers to a simple yoga question I've ever read on FFL or a.m.t. You'd expect a guy that has spent almost his entire adult life studying with gurus and rinpoches to at least know one single word in Tibetan. Go figure.

According to the Cologne Sanskrit Lexicon, the term 'dukkha' in Sanskrit, Pali and Tibetan is a Buddhist term commonly translated as 'suffering', one of the most important concepts in the Buddhist tradition. In the Yoga Sutras the term vivek means 'a wise man'.

"All is suffering for the wise man" (Y.S. 2.15).

The most ancient sustained expression of yogic ideas is found in the early discourses of the historical Buddha, thus Patanjali's conception of freedom is related to the ancient Buddhist view that the source of suffering is the craving for permanence in a universe of impermanence.

Both the 'Four Noble Truths' and the 'Eightfold Path' articulated in the Buddha's first discourse are elements that underlie the yoga system. Two striking examples of this are Patanjali's use of the word 'nirodha' in the opening definition of yoga as 'citta-vrtti-nirodha', that is, 'Yoga is the cessation of the turnings of thought' and the statement that "all is suffering, dukkha, for the wise man."

According to Stoler-Miller, dukkha, suffering, and nirodha, cessation, are crucial terms in Buddhist vocabulary and the doctrine of suffering is the core of what Buddhists believe the Buddha taught after gaining enlightenment. Patanjali's ashtang eight-limbed practice is parallel to the eight-limbed path of Buddha.

Work cited:

'Yoga: Discipline of Freedom'
by Barbara Stoler-Miller
Acclaimed translator of the Bhagavad Gita.
Bantam Wisdom Editions 1998
p. 5, 52.

        On 11/12/2013 8:48 PM, emptybill@... <mailto:emptybill@...> wrote:

Musta meant axle-rod.

---In <>, <turquoiseb@...> <mailto:turquoiseb@...> wrote:

--- In <>, wrote:

    > Dukha is the opposite of sukha. Kha as in Chaos (khaos).
    > It literally means a bad (du) axle-hole vs good (su) axle-hole.

Who exactly are you calling an axle-hole? :-)

    > ---In
    <>, sharelong60@ wrote:
    > Card, I can see at least 2 ways to interpret this quote. One

meaning is that for the person in CC, there is the infinite Self and the
finite non Self and that duality itself causes misery. OR the person in
CC realizes that all, meaning the world, is a field of change, misery
rather than of permanent bliss.

    > In another quote, Maharishi translates dukham as danger: avert the

danger which has not arisen. Heyam dukham anagatam.

    > On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:31 AM, "cardemaister@"


    > According to YS II 15: [blah blah blah...]...duHkham eva sarvam

vivekinaH ... everything (sarvam) [is] only (eva) duHkha for a vivekin.

    > duHkha 1 mfn. (according to grammarians properly written %{duS-kha}

and said to be from %{dus} and %{kha} [cf. %{su-kha4}] ; but more
probably a Pra1kritized form for %{duH-stha} q.v.) uneasy ,
uncomfortable , unpleasant , difficult R. Hariv. (compar. %{-tara} MBh.
R.) ; n. (ifc. f. %{A}) uneasiness , pain , sorrow , trouble ,
difficulty S3Br. xiv ,

    > Taimni: To the people who have developed discrimination
    (viveka) all

is misery...

    > So, is a vivekin at least in CC?
    > Is the meaning of viveka approximately the same in yoga and



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