Comments on jr_esq's response to Barry
What are the characteristics of a 'Prime Mover'? How do you find those out? How do you determine if there is a prime mover or not? What is the test? With regard to experiences that result from meditation etc., I have had a number of really interesting experiences in my life in this regard, but I can only relate them, but I can't show them to anyone. If I speak about them they are simply data which can be believed or disbelieved, i.e., opinion. These experiences fall into two categories. 1) awakening experiences and 2) spiritual experiences, and they are very different. The spiritual experiences have shall we say a religious flavour, while the awakening experiences make the religious like experiences seem like straw, unreal and also do not reveal anything other than what I previously thought about these things was insubstantial, that is spirlitual experiences are in the nature of very nice hallucinations, and awakening experiences have a rock solid sort of effect that cannot be doubted, but they are empty, tautological. What those awaking experiences reveal is the idea of a prime mover is not real, nor is the idea there is no prime mover real. There is experience, but if you call it anything, that calling is not it. People who push religious explanations either believe what they say based on what others say, or they have spiritual experiences. Atheists on the other hand either simply do not have such a belief or some have an active not-theistic belief. Those that have awakening experiences are probably more at a loss at what to say because nothing can be said about it that is true. The experience is undefined, you cannot call it a prime mover or anything, as no label will stick. There is no proof except in experience, so no proof can be offered. We humans are well noted among ourselves for pursuing phantasies. As I have said before, enlightenment is the resolution of the ultimate confidence game. The joke is on us, for it answers a question that need never have been asked. But as we are kind of dumb, we do ask it. Now you could call this experience finding God. But that word is so pale and inadequate. Rather it is more likely you would call a spiritual experience something like God or personal evidence of God because those experiences happen when the mind still thinks it is a person acting in a larger universe that is bigger than the mind and person rather than simply a function that runs within a larger framework of the entire range of experience. You can tell people of both types of experience, but only the awakening kind is really useful for living and feeling fulfilled. This is the kind that the term enlightenment applies to. But as I said, that reveals nothing other than whatever idea you had of enlightenment was, it was not correct, and that you had always been living the full value that enlightenment reveals. Very paradoxical. It is really great though. But this is just my opinion. Are you stupid or smart enough to pursue enlightenment? If you want to find God, or a prime mover, you are going to fall short, because those terms, in spite of what you might think about them, set certain kinds of limits, in other words, using those words structures the mind with boundaries. If you visulaise a prime mover, those boundaries create a prime mover in you mind that has a constipated value. This is why spiritual disciplines use meditation techniques, to break those boundaries down. Not to have spiritual experiences, but to get away from them, even though as the mind is breaking up, releasing stresses as it were, you may have spiritual experiences, hallucinations, and so on. You treat them like thoughts in TM, no big deal. They become an obstacle to clear experience if you remain attached to having had them. It is pretty hard to avoid attachment to spiritual experiences, so it takes a while to get over them, but an awakening experience is different, there will always be something about it that cannot be grasped; you cannot pin it down or hold onto it. Because at this point you realise that awakening is just another experience. It will pass. Some other value takes hold in life, and gradually the whole edifice of spiritual chotskies falls away; religion falls away, beliefs fall away. It is no longer necessary to care about these things. If you want others to have this experience, though, you can create a religion, and if you are good, it might work for a while until your followers screw it up. How many gods has mankind come up with in the last 10,000 years? Even when someones comes up with just one over mastering god, other come up with another version of it. And then they fight over it. Great sport. This can be said in so many, mostly misleading ways. When you finally give up all your ideas about this particular weird path of seeking, you end up with the absolute being, but it is not a god, nor is it a prime mover, it is not anything you can think of or describe. But it is fulfilling. When you are emptied out, you gain fulfillment, and you live what is left of the body's life from fulfillment. You have become undefined. There is no you. You are gone. There is just life. Sounds crazy doesn't it. This is my opinion. Barry probably has a somewhat different opinion, perhaps in the details, but maybe something major. I am not going to fault him for it. This is because the human mind is the creator, it is what makes up all this stuff about what is supposedly real and what is supposedly not real. The creator is a son-of-a bitch (or the daughter-of-a-bastard). One can talk endlessly about this stuff because the mind just makes up stuff all day long. It's spontaneous. You ('your' mind) are the creator. Why not give up the job? Life is a whole lot simpler that way. It is really cold here, because I have the heat turned down to save $$. Maybe I will make some hot cocoa and watch a totally frivolous TV show. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote: Barry, It's logical to say that there is a Prime Mover if one reaches an infinite regression situation. It isn't arbitrary. Specifically, space and time are mental constructs. They cannot exist without a Knower. Without a Knower, there is NOTHING, NOWHERE, NOTIME. How is it possible for the universe to start in the past and to exist as it is now? As such, the Knower is the Prime Mover. As a human being, you're supposed to find out and understand the world around us since you too are a knower. You cannot force everyone to accept what you believe is true without making any inquiry-- scientific is the best--to get the right answer. Otherwise, you become a dictator. Although some church thinkers do not agree, there are some scientists who believe that it's possible to know what happened before the universe began. These include Roger Penrose, Michio Kaku and Leonard Susskind. Are you criticizing these scientists for making an inquiry that you believe is unnecessary? IMO, human beings are knowers and should use their full intelligence and reason to find out how the world works, including how the universe started, and if possible to know what happened before it started. What is wrong with that? There is no greater enjoyment and bliss than knowing the Truth. If you enjoy your day today, there is nothing wrong with that. But is it enough?