--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 10/2/05 7:49 PM, sinhlnx at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >  The problem arises since Ramana Maharshi himself stated that any
> > talk of "I'm Enlishtened" is a lot of nonsense since there's no "I"
> > left to claim it.
> Everyone assumes Ramana Maharishi was enlightened. How did he convey
> fact? What phrases or descriptions of his own state did he use to
> everyone? Do those in his lineage use similar phrases or
descriptions, or do
> they go on to say things Ramana never would have said?

Good question! (from sinhlnx/matrixmonitor). In short (IMO - but not
being an expert on Ramana - just a TM practitioner who combines TM
with devotion to Him), trying to answer the above questions by parts:
a. How did he convey that fact?  Ans: first, from Ramana's own
description of his merging into the Self on July 17th, 1896.  It's
very convincing, and I may come back tomorrow to write down his own words.
a(2) Second, after his Enlightenment "experience" (note - there
definitely were psycho/physical symptoms accompanied with Ramana's
realization, a fact that I tried to emphasize in my previous post).
And, since such symptoms do occur, it would be less than totally
correct to say that Enlightenment can't be described. Apart from the
Transcendental component, there are physiological correlates going
along with stress release.  And, although release of the "knots" has
been described in ancient literature, MMY is definitely the first Guru
to attempt describing the higher states of consciousness in terms of
their physiological correlates of stress release; as we define stress
in modern terms (especially since Hans Selye).  Ramana - although
describing certain psychophysiological symptoms, definitely didn't
make the connection that MMY did, as a formal concept.

a(3) Next, he conveyed the fact as a living embodiment of Skanda
Himself, able to "suck" people into the Self merely by being in his
presence.  The very first recorded instance of this by a Westerner was
the Theosophist T.H. Humphreys, who happened to find Ramana somehow,
ventured into his cave, and was overwhelmed by the Radiance of His Being.
a(4) during the early part of Ramana's career, we have the testimony
of various other reputable Sages who met Him, and attested to His
a(5) later in Ramana's career, we have the testimony of various other
people who became Enlightened in His presence, and then made outright
claims of Enlightenment for themselves.  Such testimonies are recorded
in the works of David Godman, such as 1.  The book "No Mind, I am the
Self" by Godman, being a biography of a certain Laksmana who around
1947 became Enlightened in Ramana's Presence, and wrote "I have
realized the Self" and handed the note to Ramana. Ramana is then said
by observers to turned up his eyebrows, smiled and given some type of
silent affirmation.  But let's stop here: none of these circumstantial
lines of evidence alone is proof of Ramana's attainment; but taken as
a whole, especially the collected works of Ramana (he didn't write
much, most of the collected works were recorded by others); there can
be no doubt!...but again, this is not a mathematical proof.
 If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a
general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami
Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana
was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" Sage of the 20th
century.  Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I
would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally.
a(6) next, we have numerous inner plane experiences of countless
people (myself among them), who have had remarkable encounters with
Him, attesting (at least) to His Power; and further lending weight to
the conclusion at hand; although I would hasten to add that I also
have had a remarkable inner plane experience with Satan, but would not
count that as a similar type of evidence. We must examine the lasting
influence of the evidence...does it/they to  lead in the long run
(such inner plane experiences)to one's further progress on the Path,
even culminating in Self-Realization ? (as in the case of some of the
Neo-Advaitins who count Ramana as their teacher). Having said this we
can list as
a(7) Ramana's collected works, which I will refer to tonight in hopes
of finding a statment of His at least close to an outright declaration
of having realized the Self; if not something like "I realized the
Self on July 17th, 1896", at least something close to it.
a(8) Next, we can certainly count on the testimony of HWL Poonja, who
became Enlightened in Ramana's Presence, whose many words have been
recorded by David Godman and others.  Again, we may attempt to
pinpoint an outright declaration of Self-Realization but failing that,
we have several volumes of HWL Poonja's statements regarding the
nature of Enlightenment (but again falling short of MMY's clever
revelation concerning the physiological stress release component.
a(9) Next, we have the testimony of "disciples of disciples" of
Ramana, ie. the grand disciples: first, the disciples of HWL Poonja
who claim Enlightenment in one way or another such as Gangaji and
about a half-dozen or more other people. In this regard, our topic
touches upon the concept of "Pseudo-realizers" or whom I prefer to
address by the name "Neo-Advaitins" since some of these people may be
Enlightened but others not.  A previous contributor mentioned the
statements of HWL Poonja regarding some of these would-be Advaitins.
I've seen some of the videos. It "appears" that he's acknowledging the
attainment of devotees but we are really left in doubt.  In the case
of Andrew Cohen we have an interesting and curious example of a person
who exhibits on an outward level of apparent egoity but definitely
claims Enlightenment for himself. 
 Thus, what is the status of such apparent egoity". IMO - it's another
verison of egoity operating on a DNA/cellular level - and in the case
of certain other people whom we consider to be Enlightened, generates
a continued sexual attraction to the opposite sex.  What's happening
here?  Simple.  Enlightenment  - except in rare cases of the most
"exalted" Realizers such as Guru Dev and Ramana Maharshi is
insufficient at times to eradicate the profound influence of millions
of years of DNA evolution and the accompanying "cave-man" behavior of
males for the quest of sexual encounters; AS WELL AS other predominant
behavior such as the quest for power and money.  Nope.  Neither Guru
Dev nor Ramana messed around, they didn't hoard money, and  in the
relative sense were completely humble people.  If we have learned
anything since the 60's, it's this one fact: that Enlightened people
(whom we consider to be Enlightened by the cumulated evidence); can/do
exhibit certain morally unacceptable behaviors which cannot be
"explained away" by any measure of twisted logic. The names of such
persons are already legendary along with their exploits.
(Do such Neo-Advaitins make outright claims of Enlightenment or do
they ...on the whole ...use other phrases, or make statements Ramana
would not have said.  Good question!  First, the Neo-Advaitins would
generally be on risky ground by making the assertion "I'm
Enlightened", since Ramana would not approve of such statements. Most
of the Advaitins try to avoid such outright claims, but rather use
certain code words/phrases to convey the same idea.  This strategy
avoids the conundrum they have of a. contradicting Ramana's teachings
since Ramana Himself said such statements were of a delusional nature;
and at the same time b. attempting to convey to their own followers
(in the hopes of gaining money, adulation possibly) that they really
ARE Enlightened but can't claim it outright (not Kosher in Ramana's
scheme of things, or in in the worldview of Nisargadatta Maharaj,
whose book is held in high esteem by all of the Advaitins and EVEN
among many people in the TM Movement.  In fact, Jerry Jarvis sent me a
cc of Nisargadatta Maharaj's book "I AM THAT" as a gift.  Having
mentioned that book, let's go into it briefly:  Nisargadatta Maharaj's
main point expressed so eloquently in a myriad of ways, is alluded to
mainly through a teaching method of his: to always asked the question
WHO is doing the speaking, (Ramana used the same method). Just by
asking the question, the querant became dumbfounded, had no adequate
reply, and along with "just beeeeellllliiiieeevvvvvviiiiinnnngggg"
that "all is the Self"; the querant is "supposed" to get Self-Realized
right on the spot!  We can see this methodology so many times in the
recorded lectures of HWL Poonja.  WHO is doing this, WHO is doing
that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and
HWL Poonja.  This is our interface with the previous post on "just
Bbbbbbbeeeeeelllllliiiieeeevvvvvvee...and Be the Self!).  Not so easy,
and why?  Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out the
physiological component!!!.  That's why MMY's contribution will be
remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : TM
as we practice it.  Hallaleulya....Praise God!  I'd be a
gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an
ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main "method";
which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY
Realized in order to "do it".  Thus, it - Ramana's method - is rather
inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross
level like myself.  I need something more substantial to get lifted up
by the bootstraps; thus TM....it works.  Never could get anything out
of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so
straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances.
Last but not least, if the Neo advaitins are not allowed to make
outright claims of Enlightenment, which pharses do they use instead> 
I;ll try to find some and post those in a few days.
  That's all for now...over and out.

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