--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 10/2/05 7:49 PM, sinhlnx at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > The problem arises since Ramana Maharshi himself stated that any > > talk of "I'm Enlishtened" is a lot of nonsense since there's no "I" > > left to claim it. > > Everyone assumes Ramana Maharishi was enlightened. How did he convey that > fact? What phrases or descriptions of his own state did he use to convince > everyone? Do those in his lineage use similar phrases or descriptions, or do > they go on to say things Ramana never would have said?
Good question! (from sinhlnx/matrixmonitor). In short (IMO - but not being an expert on Ramana - just a TM practitioner who combines TM with devotion to Him), trying to answer the above questions by parts: a. How did he convey that fact? Ans: first, from Ramana's own description of his merging into the Self on July 17th, 1896. It's very convincing, and I may come back tomorrow to write down his own words. a(2) Second, after his Enlightenment "experience" (note - there definitely were psycho/physical symptoms accompanied with Ramana's realization, a fact that I tried to emphasize in my previous post). And, since such symptoms do occur, it would be less than totally correct to say that Enlightenment can't be described. Apart from the Transcendental component, there are physiological correlates going along with stress release. And, although release of the "knots" has been described in ancient literature, MMY is definitely the first Guru to attempt describing the higher states of consciousness in terms of their physiological correlates of stress release; as we define stress in modern terms (especially since Hans Selye). Ramana - although describing certain psychophysiological symptoms, definitely didn't make the connection that MMY did, as a formal concept. a(3) Next, he conveyed the fact as a living embodiment of Skanda Himself, able to "suck" people into the Self merely by being in his presence. The very first recorded instance of this by a Westerner was the Theosophist T.H. Humphreys, who happened to find Ramana somehow, ventured into his cave, and was overwhelmed by the Radiance of His Being. a(4) during the early part of Ramana's career, we have the testimony of various other reputable Sages who met Him, and attested to His realization. a(5) later in Ramana's career, we have the testimony of various other people who became Enlightened in His presence, and then made outright claims of Enlightenment for themselves. Such testimonies are recorded in the works of David Godman, such as 1. The book "No Mind, I am the Self" by Godman, being a biography of a certain Laksmana who around 1947 became Enlightened in Ramana's Presence, and wrote "I have realized the Self" and handed the note to Ramana. Ramana is then said by observers to turned up his eyebrows, smiled and given some type of silent affirmation. But let's stop here: none of these circumstantial lines of evidence alone is proof of Ramana's attainment; but taken as a whole, especially the collected works of Ramana (he didn't write much, most of the collected works were recorded by others); there can be no doubt!...but again, this is not a mathematical proof. If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" Sage of the 20th century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. a(6) next, we have numerous inner plane experiences of countless people (myself among them), who have had remarkable encounters with Him, attesting (at least) to His Power; and further lending weight to the conclusion at hand; although I would hasten to add that I also have had a remarkable inner plane experience with Satan, but would not count that as a similar type of evidence. We must examine the lasting influence of the evidence...does it/they to lead in the long run (such inner plane experiences)to one's further progress on the Path, even culminating in Self-Realization ? (as in the case of some of the Neo-Advaitins who count Ramana as their teacher). Having said this we can list as a(7) Ramana's collected works, which I will refer to tonight in hopes of finding a statment of His at least close to an outright declaration of having realized the Self; if not something like "I realized the Self on July 17th, 1896", at least something close to it. a(8) Next, we can certainly count on the testimony of HWL Poonja, who became Enlightened in Ramana's Presence, whose many words have been recorded by David Godman and others. Again, we may attempt to pinpoint an outright declaration of Self-Realization but failing that, we have several volumes of HWL Poonja's statements regarding the nature of Enlightenment (but again falling short of MMY's clever revelation concerning the physiological stress release component. a(9) Next, we have the testimony of "disciples of disciples" of Ramana, ie. the grand disciples: first, the disciples of HWL Poonja who claim Enlightenment in one way or another such as Gangaji and about a half-dozen or more other people. In this regard, our topic touches upon the concept of "Pseudo-realizers" or whom I prefer to address by the name "Neo-Advaitins" since some of these people may be Enlightened but others not. A previous contributor mentioned the statements of HWL Poonja regarding some of these would-be Advaitins. I've seen some of the videos. It "appears" that he's acknowledging the attainment of devotees but we are really left in doubt. In the case of Andrew Cohen we have an interesting and curious example of a person who exhibits on an outward level of apparent egoity but definitely claims Enlightenment for himself. Thus, what is the status of such apparent egoity". IMO - it's another verison of egoity operating on a DNA/cellular level - and in the case of certain other people whom we consider to be Enlightened, generates a continued sexual attraction to the opposite sex. What's happening here? Simple. Enlightenment - except in rare cases of the most "exalted" Realizers such as Guru Dev and Ramana Maharshi is insufficient at times to eradicate the profound influence of millions of years of DNA evolution and the accompanying "cave-man" behavior of males for the quest of sexual encounters; AS WELL AS other predominant behavior such as the quest for power and money. Nope. Neither Guru Dev nor Ramana messed around, they didn't hoard money, and in the relative sense were completely humble people. If we have learned anything since the 60's, it's this one fact: that Enlightened people (whom we consider to be Enlightened by the cumulated evidence); can/do exhibit certain morally unacceptable behaviors which cannot be "explained away" by any measure of twisted logic. The names of such persons are already legendary along with their exploits. PART II (Do such Neo-Advaitins make outright claims of Enlightenment or do they ...on the whole ...use other phrases, or make statements Ramana would not have said. Good question! First, the Neo-Advaitins would generally be on risky ground by making the assertion "I'm Enlightened", since Ramana would not approve of such statements. Most of the Advaitins try to avoid such outright claims, but rather use certain code words/phrases to convey the same idea. This strategy avoids the conundrum they have of a. contradicting Ramana's teachings since Ramana Himself said such statements were of a delusional nature; and at the same time b. attempting to convey to their own followers (in the hopes of gaining money, adulation possibly) that they really ARE Enlightened but can't claim it outright (not Kosher in Ramana's scheme of things, or in in the worldview of Nisargadatta Maharaj, whose book is held in high esteem by all of the Advaitins and EVEN among many people in the TM Movement. In fact, Jerry Jarvis sent me a cc of Nisargadatta Maharaj's book "I AM THAT" as a gift. Having mentioned that book, let's go into it briefly: Nisargadatta Maharaj's main point expressed so eloquently in a myriad of ways, is alluded to mainly through a teaching method of his: to always asked the question WHO is doing the speaking, (Ramana used the same method). Just by asking the question, the querant became dumbfounded, had no adequate reply, and along with "just beeeeellllliiiieeevvvvvviiiiinnnngggg" that "all is the Self"; the querant is "supposed" to get Self-Realized right on the spot! We can see this methodology so many times in the recorded lectures of HWL Poonja. WHO is doing this, WHO is doing that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and HWL Poonja. This is our interface with the previous post on "just Bbbbbbbeeeeeelllllliiiieeeevvvvvvee...and Be the Self!). Not so easy, and why? Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out the physiological component!!!. That's why MMY's contribution will be remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : TM as we practice it. Hallaleulya....Praise God! I'd be a gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main "method"; which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY Realized in order to "do it". Thus, it - Ramana's method - is rather inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross level like myself. I need something more substantial to get lifted up by the bootstraps; thus TM....it works. Never could get anything out of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances. Last but not least, if the Neo advaitins are not allowed to make outright claims of Enlightenment, which pharses do they use instead> I;ll try to find some and post those in a few days. That's all for now...over and out. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. 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