---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote :
how is it off the mark when the long term TM'ers who commit or attempt to commit suicide have spent years practicing a practice that is supposed to have only positive effects, remove all problems and make life superlative. This says more about your inability to discriminate between a vision of possibilities, and what is actually realistic. Before you take issue with that, go review the bullshit PR that grinning Bob Roth and all the TM'er promoters are using. If TM was as advertised, there would be no suicides, none. There would be no pundit riots, there would be no Ed Beckleys or Theodore Burgohffs. Michael, your grip on reality actually seems a little tenuous as you regularly empower TM with these remarkable abilities. There are not many who would recognize these powers that you attribute to the practice. The PR claims were never guarantees. The ME effect? I don't see evidence that it has produced results as advertised. Does that invalidate the whole practice? In my experience, it does not. I received the benefits which were advertised. The fact that I've gone in a different direction has nothing to do with the efficacy of the practice. I know that in your black and white world, that is difficult to comprehend, but maybe over time, it will make more sense. But there are and I tell you that the suicides and attempted suicides are a lot more prevalent than TM people think and it will ultimately be one of the main things that when publicized will bring the TMO down. Yes, Michael, you produce your anecdotal evidence as if it is fact. And when it is shown not to be the case, you just remain silent, thinking everyone has forgotten about it. Let's face it, accuracy takes a back seat to anything disparaging you can say, or find about the TMO, no matter where it happens to come from. And let's face it, you more than anyone here, is all wrapped up in anything, and everything TM related. From: "steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS & MEDITATION Michael, I acknowledge that engaging in a spiritual practice can cause one to become unhinged, along the lines of what Xeno laid out yesterday. That includes TM and probably many others. But I don't know if the prevalence is greater among TMers, or not. I don't think it is useful to hi-light what you feel are extreme ways of doing the deed. The result is always the same. You know of course that suicide is the second leading cause of death among teenagers. I think I have that right, next to car accidents. So, for you to reference two young suicides is FF recently is a little off the mark, if you wish to attribute those to TM somehow. But be my guest if you feel so inclined. And yes, I have observed a degree of mood making among some in long term meditating category. But I've also seen that most of it is really harmless, at least as it pertains to daily living. Again, you bring up a few isolated instances to make your point. Might comment more later, but need to get going now. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : like Willy Tex you are universally wrong. You have not been on FFL long enough to have read some of my posts where I have described my own pleasant experiences that I had with and around TM, and I have acknowledged that a lot of people ascribe god things to TM. I don't deny that. I do also acknowledge that TM is not for everyone and that from what many TM teachers say, about 90% of new meditators cease TM practice within the first year. I also know that much of the "positive" ascribed to TM by all the True Believers is at least in part mood making. And that a lot of negatives accrue from living a real TM life and getting sucked into all the bullshit thinking like being constantly in fear of normal things like south facing entrances and solar eclipses. As to the suicides I do know what I am talking about. I have heard and read of enough TM suicides and am in conversation with a couple people who were raised in the Movement as 2nd generation meditators, both of whom were at one time part of the Fairfield TM elite families who have told me about many attempted suicides right there in Fairfield and elsewhere. It is one of the most serious aspects of long term TM practice that has always been ignored and swept under the rug. Ask yourself how a long term TM'er and purusha could have deliberately set himself on fire in Marshy's home in Vlodrop? There were two suicides in Fairfield in the past year, plus many others over the years - Mark Totten, Brian Henchcliff and the list goes on and on, not to mention the attempted suicides. If you want to blithely believe they don't exist, go ahead. From: "steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS & MEDITATION Michael, I am afraid it is speculation on your part wr to suicides and attempted suicides on the part of practitioners of TM. Maybe the facts will bear that out, but you really don't know. but speaking of getting rid of ideas, you seem to think that anyone who had, or currently has, a positive connection with the TMO is deluding themselves. It's a rather arrogant, one sided point of view, but a main tenant of your posting here. You don't seem to realize that there is a range of involvement people have or had with it, and also a range of benefits they may have derived from it. I don't see that changing anytime soon. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : again your point of view. Mine is that once you get rid of the idea that Marshy was always telling the truth and was a fount of great wisdom and start looking with a clear eye at the Movement AND start listening to people who got broken from doing TM you find that getting in a state of mental aberration is much more the rule than the rare exception. But people want to hide from and ignore these things for many reasons. The fairly high incidence of suicides and attempted suicides amongst long term TM'ers is a good example. From: "steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 5:01 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS & MEDITATION If you want to get committed to an mental institution, describe your spiritual experiences to a mental health professional. You will learn early on to just shut up about them. Or maybe you change the phrasing some, and then they think you are highly actualized. But, better to just shut up about them. On the other hand, I have no doubt that as you say, (having just skimmed some of it), that a spiritual practice can push one over the edge. Our friend Michael likes to take such instances and state them as the rule, rather than as the rare exception. I think it is more likely that one disassociates from the practice once things get too hairy. But to look to a mental health professional to either validate or invalidate so called spiritual experiences would be a waste of time, at least IMO. Better to just see how a person performs in daily activity. I think you get a much better idea of their state of mind. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote : It might be useful to note that dissociative disorders reference a 'healthy' ego as the centre of what a person is. Spiritual disciplines, while not destroying the ego, displaces it from the centre of experience - it becomes a peripheral object of experience rather than the centre of experience. To do that successfully the mind must be modified to regard ego differently, to understand that the ego is simply a concoction of mental processes and attitudes that have been given a label — 'ME'. In regard to ego, spiritual techniques are very likely going to produce some experiences of dissociation as the centre of life in 'ignorance' is going to get disrupted. The experience of 'pure consciousness', i.e., a silent mind watching, witnessing thoughts and mental states would seem to correspond more with Depersonalisation Disorder rather than Identity Disorder (which was formerly Multiple Personality Disorder). DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS DISSOCIATIVE AMNESIA: In dissociative amnesia, a person has one or more experiences of being unable to remember or recall important information about himself. This difficulty in remembering information goes beyond simple forgetfulness. The information that the person cannot recall is usually about some kind of traumatic or stressful event. DISSOCIATIVE FUGUE: Someone with this disorder will suddenly forget about his past and unexpectedly travel away from home. The person may also experience some confusion about his identity or even assume a completely new identity. DISSOCIATIVE IDENTITY DISORDER: This disorder used to be called, 'Multiple Personality Disorder.' A person with dissociative identity disorder will have two or more separate identities that each have their own way of thinking and relating to the world. To have this disorder, a minimum of two of these identities must also take control over the person's behaviour again and again. Finally, the person with dissociative identity disorder may also have difficulty remembering personal information that, like dissociative amnesia, goes beyond simple forgetfulness. DEPERSONALISATION DISORDER: In depersonalisation disorder, a person feels 'detached from' their thoughts or body. For example, they may feel as though they are floating outside their body, looking at people through a window, or in a dream. Despite these experiences though, the person still stays in touch with reality. DISSOCIATIVE DISORDER NOT OTHERWISE SPECIFIED: This term is used by the DSM-IV to describe a dissociative disorder where the main feature is still some kind of dissociative experience, but criteria for other dissociative disorders are not present. The following are links to tests used for screening patients for potential Dissociative Identity Disorder. The test does not diagnose the disorders, that involves more work with a professional. If you take this exam and score high, then it is more likely you could have the disorders. Test for Dissociative Identity Disorder http://counsellingresource.com/lib/quizzes/misc-tests/des/ http://counsellingresource.com/lib/quizzes/misc-tests/des/ Test for Depersonalisation Disorder http://www.strangerinthemirror.com/questionnaire.html http://www.strangerinthemirror.com/questionnaire.html Now I have observed people who did different kinds of meditation describe some of the features found on this test, and I myself have experienced a number of them to some degree, both before I learned TM, or any spiritual technique, during, and using other techniques as well. How this affects you depends on how well your understanding copes with the experiences, because it is how the mind interprets experience which determines whether you will find something disturbing. Meditation is going to disrupt the ego and shift its relative importance and it is going to result in certain kinds of dissociation. I would say CC is the greatest of these as the split between sense of self, mind and thoughts and the world is greatest. If you are cool with the experience everything is fine; if you have a really impacted ego, it might be a problem as identity shifts, both because the ego wants centre stage, and it might co-opt the experience to further its ends, that is, not liking being shunted off to the side, it uses the experience to bolster its sense of individuality and identity, and prevents the CC from dissolving into something more integrative. If you actually have a psychological disorder, perhaps it will make it worse if you meditate. In general I do not think the TM movement does very well with dealing or explaining experiences involving shift in identity — one's perceived sense of self — so if you start out 'normal', meditation might just screw you up if you are not given relevant and accurate advice. I think part of the problem is meditation is for enlightenment, and promoting it for any other purpose unseats the context in which it is designed to be used. And in Western culture, enlightenment is a less established way of regarding a life path than in some others. So promoting meditation for health or for happiness, tends to be misleading as to what may happen if you are really gung-ho about meditating. It is a long-range plan, not a quick fix for immediate personal problems, and one might just be unsuited for it. That most people stop meditating and/or are half-hearted about practicing it probably eliminates many potential problems that could develop. We might also remember that many people coming to meditation tend to be looking for a way to 'fix' the difficulties they have with living, and may not always be as of sound mind as your typical 'ignorant' person who just works hard and makes his/her way through life with out much ado. You have to dissociate from two views of life on the path of enlightenment. First you have to break with the way you regarded life in the past, which is, in a certain understanding, a lie. You then adopt a new understanding, the so-called path of enlightenment understanding. This too is a lie, and at some point you have to break with this understanding as well, or you will be a lost soul, forever disintegrated and dissociated from reality. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <fleetwood_macncheese@...> wrote : That is absolutely not true, Michael. The spaciness, and what I call dirty witnessing, often reported by course participants, is an experience of the disconnection of one's true nature, from the mind's common experience. No integration there. It is a beginning experience of witnessing, brought about by an absence of common reference points, allowing the experience of pur e consciousness to emerge, during activity. It has nothing to do with a psychotic break, which is brought about by severe post traumatic stress. Once the divine witness is fully integrated into experience, and accompanies us everywhere, even into deep sleep, it is anything but psychotic. I can appreciate the immaturity of your spiritual experiences, but to make such a blanket statement that witnessing is synonymous with psychosis is a damned irresponsible, and ridiculous thing to say. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : that which people call witnessing is a state of disassociation - ergo, that which TM'ers love to believe is a sign of rising enlightenment is actually a psychotic state of disconnect from reality.
