I notice no one is taking you to task for your erudite musings - hard to assail
unassailable logic and reason.
If I am not mistaken, M in the past referred to the mythical vedic society as a
pure one where everyone was in harmony with the laws of nature and all that
jazz. So how could Bob Schneider find examples of vedic head shrinking if
everyone was in harmony in that non-existent time period?
________________________________
From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Word to Buck about TM Suicides - Was Maharishi: As
we take care of ourself, the world will take of itself for us on that level
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote :
"I'm
starting to feel really sorry for anyone with mental health problems in
Fairfield, it seems like you'll be going further down the rabbit hole
rather than away from it."
Oh my! No, no, no Salyavin! You are totally and utterly wrong! You are an
outsider and don't know what is going on in the Home of All Vedic Knowledge in
America. TM Stars-in-the-Eyes Share informs us that the TMO ITSELF is handling
these things very nicely thank you! And Uncle Fester tells us she's right and
us outsiders don't have a clue.
Here is the real deal.
Schneider's basic approach is to listen to the person talk about their
problems, tell them to think sweet thoughts, read the Hindu scriptures and do
TM.
This is absolutely irresponsible garbage to offer this crap as a
way to assist people with real mental problems. His bottom line is transcend
and that takes care of everything.
IF THAT FUCKING WORKED, LONG TERM TM'ERS WOULD NOT GET DEPRESSED
OR COMMIT OR ATTEMPT TO COMMIT SUICIDE.
MJ, your logic is impeccable.
Unless there is another cause, like too much lead in the water (or in the
herbal supplements)
Seriously though, it seems that if it isn't part of the way ayurveda sees the
world (everything being a balance of doshas) then it has no place in the
movement, so all they are left with is variations of the familiar theme that
got them nowhere in the first place. Mental health is so much more complex than
that. They may be right that anxiety causes a vata imbalance but not the other
way round and they leave out vastly too much that is known about mental health
problems and their causes in the quest for convergence with their own ideas.
I'm particularly worried about the reading scriptures bit. That's just a bit
too fundamentalist for me, might be a comfort blanket for a TB though. But as I
say, a good chat will be enough for a lot of people to find a bit of solace
whatever the strangeness of the underlying beliefs.
________________________________
From: salyavin808 <no_re...@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Word to Buck about TM Suicides - Was Maharishi: As
we take care of ourself, the world will take of itself for us on that level
Lansdorf's bit seems to culminate in recommending the general TMer's lifestyle
to improve emotional health enormously. She seems a bit out of touch really
given what we're talking about here, unless the FFer's are staying up all night
and eating cheeseburgers, not doing their programme and thus not establishing
themselves in pure awareness where all problems are solved. Same old crap
really, sounds great but it didn't work for enough people for it to be obvious.
Plenty of good anecdotes though, which always cheers me up!
And then she blows her credibility entirely by promoting MMVT, with a few
anecdotes of course. This is the trouble with all the videos here, if you aren't
inclined to believe it in the first place there isn't enough to convince you as
it all depends on prior assumptions, things like Marshy's knowledge being the
ultimate. Even obviously religious concepts like SCI and the unified field get
bandied about with even a caveat about them being beliefs and not even remotely
a part of common knowledge outside of the TMO, let alone scientific principles.
Which makes their reliance on "studies" to back up every point seem a bit
dislocating to me. You don't have to be very scientifically literate to form
valid doubts about all of this.
Vedic psychiatry hits the nail on the head though, bad mental health is caused
by bad thinking. It actually is sometimes too. It all sounds great but then
it's straight off to the unified
field as explained by the great physicist John Hagelin. I was hoping for
something a bit more profound than "the cause of mental health problems is
imbalance in the doshas" especially when they claim the cure is:
Patience
Spiritual knowledge
Scriptural knowledge
Memory
and TM, of course.
I'm starting to feel really sorry for anyone with mental health problems in
Fairfield, it seems like you'll be going further down the rabbit hole rather
than away from it.
Luckily, the fact that just sitting down with someone and talking
can have huge benefits and will be enough for the neurotically depressed to be
able to say it was a success regardless of the underlying framework. None of it
would have helped the guy with schizophrenia though, which is a shame as I
presume that is what was being alluded to in the introduction.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <LEnglish5@...> wrote :
First is Nancy Landsorf talking about healing emotional heart using Maharishi
Ayruveda, and then 47 minutes in, Robert Schneider is talking about Vedic
Psychiatry.
L
WAVES Conference: 7/31 to 8/2 by Maharishi University of Management
WAVES Conference: 7/31 to 8/2 by
Maharishi University ...
Watch Maharishi University of Management's WAVES Conference: 7/31 to 8/2 on
Livestream.com. Thursday, 31 July 2014 is the evening (7:00–9:45 p.m....
View on new.livestrea... Preview by Yahoo
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <LEnglish5@...> wrote :
And you can see a warming up of the TM
organization to the concept of mental health intervention by the fact that
Robert Schneider gave a presentation at the WAVES conference at MUM a few weeks
ago about "Vedic Psychiatry."
Any chance of a link? I want to see what a "vedic" mental health intervention
might look like.
That in itself is noteworthy and suggestive, even if the TMO leaders weren't
involved publicly as you say they are.
It sure
is suggestive. The first thing it suggests is that they've had to admit that TM
isn't the panacea they've been assuring us it was for decades. Does all the
research get scrapped? Do the brochures get rewritten? The Science of Being
removed from the shelves?
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <sharelong60@...> wrote :
Michael, I am attending these meetings. Neither you nor
the lady from California are. I KNOW that there are TMO leaders in the room. It
is a joint effort.
On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:08 PM, "Michael Jackson mjackson74@...
[FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
You are incorrect. Instead of reading what I wrote to see what might be there
to think about you knee jerked with criticism which in itself is incorrect. You
said "the TMO is dealing with these issues."
They are not according to the lady from
California who posted here in response to the discussion on TM related
suicides. She said
she knows the people involved, the therapists in Farifield and she said quite
clearly it was a private effort NOT one being undertaken by the TMO.
For those other than Share I repost the salient points I made.
"If you are really as hopeful and concerned about the well being of
TM'ers as I think you are, it would be a fine first step to begin to
acknowledge the down side to TM and long term TMSP. That's all I'm saying.
The culture of ignoring the incidents or worse blaming the
victims, those who killed themselves or tried to is one of the things that is
stifling the Movement itself.
What I am suggesting is that current and former TM'ers all join
together to be open and honest about these things and extend our hands to those
who are suffering from mental/emotional states that may lead to suicide or have
led to suicide attempts in the past. The TMO status quo to counsel getting the
meditation and sutra practice checked or to have a yagya done just isn't
cutting it.
And until it becomes ok in TM communities like Fairfield for
people to openly acknowledge that are NOT feeling good, they are not in bliss
that they have problems suicides and fracturing of the Movement will continue.
You know very well that in places like MIU or Vedic Villages if people voice
their problems they are looked down on or looked askance at, as if they are off
the program, which is about all the TMO is willing to admit might be a problem.
And they are not offered the help they need.
It is one thing for those of us who have left the Movement to call for
change, but until you good folks who diligently go to the Domes each day to
work for world peace join with your former TM brothers and sisters to call for
the pervading atmosphere in the Movement to change regarding TM suicides, the
problem will continue. Ultimately only those of you who support the Movement
with your time, effort, energy, activity and money can effect the needed
changes. But those of us who left the Movement are willing to help for the good
of TM'ers and non-TM'ers"
________________________________
From: "Share Long sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife]"
<FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Word to Buck about TM Suicides - Was Maharishi: As
we take care of ourself, the world will take of itself for us on that level
Michael, people are already coming together to discuss these issues and take
action. You were told this a few weeks ago.
On
Wednesday, August 27, 2014 1:20 PM, "Michael Jackson mjackson74@...
[FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Re read dear - I am ignoring nothing, but you are ignoring my asking people to
come together. Open your mind dear.
________________________________
From: "Share Long sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife]"
<FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Word to Buck about TM Suicides - Was Maharishi: As
we take care of ourself, the world will take of itself for us on that level
Michael, your allegations about TMO ignoring mental health challenges are still
very much out of date. Moreover, you were told details about how the TMO is
dealing with these issues just a few weeks ago. Today you are ignoring all that
info.
On Wednesday, August 27, 2014
8:00 AM, "Michael Jackson mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife]"
<FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Omm - in a normal population, your contention would be accurate. But with the
superlatives claimed for TM and TMSP, esp TMSP in groups, TM suicides should
never happen.
To acknowledge that suicides happen among long
term TM practitioners is to to tacitly acknowledge the
PR with which TM and TMSP is sold to the public is in fact dishonest.
I would very much love it if the practice of TM had no side effects, and would
love it even more if the end results and benefits for TM and TMSP were in fact
what was claimed for it. We would be living in a much better happier world if
that were the case.
My contention is that the TMO needs to own up to the truth about what can
happen amongst TM'ers or at least stop touting TM as a cure all for all the
worlds ills which is what they essentially do.
It is dishonest
or
perhaps an avoidance behavior to not acknowledge the things that can happen.
Anyone who spent any time working at any TM facility all have
stories of those who had to leave in the middle of the night or were sent home
by the TMO for their strange behavior, plus the attempted and successful
suicides.
If you are really as hopeful and concerned about the well being of TM'ers as I
think you are, it would be a fine first step to begin to acknowledge the down
side to TM and long term TMSP. That's all I'm saying.
The culture of ignoring the incidents or worse blaming the victims, those who
killed themselves or tried to is one of the things that is stifling the
Movement itself.
What I am
suggesting
is that current and
former TM'ers all join together to be open and honest about these things and
extend our hands to those who are suffering from mental/emotional states that
may lead to suicide or have led to suicide attempts in the past. The TMO status
quo to counsel getting the meditation and sutra practice checked or to have a
yagya done just isn't cutting it.
An until it becomes ok in TM communities like Fairfield for people to openly
acknowledge that are NOT feeling good, they
are not in bliss that they have problems suicides and fracturing
of the Movement will continue. You know very well that in places like MIU or
Vedic Villages if people voice their problems they are looked down on or looked
askance at, as if they are off the program, which is about all the TMO is
willing to admit might be a problem. And they are not offered the help they
need.
While it is true that suicides affect all races, religions, etc suicides among
TM practitioners must be handled with
greater care, and those who are at risk for such behavior need more help
perhaps than
those in non-TM populations just because of the stigma attached to not being in
a place within yourself and acknowledging that place to the world that all is
bliss and your life is wonderful because of TM.
This is a legacy of Maharishi and one the Movement has a financial interest in
maintaining. Even when I was a self styled TM fanatic, one of the things I
didn't like about the Movement was its habit of redirecting everyone's
attention to TM. No one in the TM
community could do ANYTHING without it being an example of TM's
bright shiny nature. And yet if someone did something like pull an Ed Beckley,
it had nothing to do with TM. This is simply a dishonest point of view and one
which does not serve the TM community, nor the larger non TM community with
which you interact.
The statistics may show Fairfield no different in terms of suicides but
statistics have never been compiled for an exclusively TM population.
Regardless of what it would show, with the focus TM communities should
have on perfection or at least everyone living a good life, one TM
suicide is too many. And while that may not be a realistic goal, I hope
you know that the kinds of attitude shift that would open things up for
real dialogue, real conversations and real actions that are not (and I
do not mean to be unkind in saying this) that are not tied to glorifying
the Movement and putting money in their pockets.
Dead
or alive I don't care about Maharishi. I do care about the people who
are doing TM and suffering so much their daily visits to the Dome do
nothing to decrease that desire to kill themselves.
It is one thing for those of us who have left the Movement to call for change,
but until you good folks who diligently go to the Domes each day to work for
world peace join with your former TM brothers and sisters to call for the
pervading atmosphere in the Movement to change regarding TM suicides, the
problem will continue. Ultimately only those of you who support the Movement
with your time, effort, energy, activity and money can
effect the needed changes. But those of us who left the
Movement are willing to help for the good of TM'ers and non-TM'ers alike. Cause
let's face it, we are all in this world together.
________________________________
From: "dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 8/12&13/14-Maharishi: As we take care of
ourself, the world will take of itself for us on that level
Yes, MJ as usual is forcing wild conclusions just to defame TM
from premises that don't hold water.
I spoke with the County medical examiner here yesterday. There are not
spikes
in suicides. Nothing demographically significant. People of all
demographics die all the time for a whole range of reasons across the
whole spectrum. In 20 years of experience there is nothing to see
out of the ordinary with the range of suicide. Life and death are an ongoing
thing. There
simply is not a particular spike within the meditating community.
Suicide happens too. It is a disease that people may not recover
from.
That does not say that there might not be some cultural
elements within TM that are significant to mental health one way or
another. That is being looked at in a whole range of elements. But
to say TM particularly causes suicide is a wild assertion. MJ should
stop that or be brought before a defamation lawsuit. It is getting
time to cross him and some others up for what they are trying to do otherwise.
The larger data shows that
all kinds of people start meditating including depressed people
who may
be predisposed to commit suicide. The communal and compassionate
thing to do is to look out for the larger symptoms that lead to
suicide. That is actively being worked on locally. If someone
commits suicide who meditates is it really because
they meditate as MJ is trying real hard to assert? No.
Lot of people just wanting to learn TM just by-pass the questions
on the initial TM interview form about mental health relative to
consultation or therapy for
mental health. If they answered truthfully that would send them to consult
with their mental health practitioner before learning TM, which would delay
their beginning.. .. ie about that in the same way some people will
lie about the 15-day requirement for taking recreational drugs prior
to beginning meditation.
While a truth is that young people taking
marijuana in to their young developing physiology [brains] at tender early age
are more prone to psychological breaks later in life. Even suicide. If they
subsequently learn to meditate and they oft themselves later? No,
MJ is simply trying real hard to defame TM with hangi
(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
